Ep 94 Leanne Meyer

Leanne Meyer is the author of Climbing the Spiral Staircase, a guide for women seeking to gain control of their professional paths. She directs Carnegie Mellon Women’s Executive Leadership Academy and is the former director of the university’s Accelerate Leadership Center. With more than thirty years of senior-level consulting and executive development experience, Leanne provides evidence-based methods to change business practices. Her work helps leaders navigate critical inflection points, refocus professional identities and develop new skills. She consults with Fortune 100 companies and holds a master’s degree in industrial psychology from the University of Johannesburg. She is passionate about helping leaders reinvigorate their lives through the reclamation of passion and purpose. 

Connect with Leanne Meyer:
-Website: https://leannemeyer.com/ 

-Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/leanne.meyer.77 

-IG: https://www.instagram.com/leanne.m.meyer/ 

-Twitter: https://twitter.com/leanne_meyer 

-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/leannemeyer/ 

-Book: https://leannemeyer.com/book/ 

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

You're listening to the Tells the Leadership podcast. This podcast is for leaders at any phase on their leadership journey to become a more purposeful and accountable leader what I like to call a pal. Join me on our journey together towards transformational leadership. Welcome back to Tells the Leadership podcast. I am your host, Josh McMillian, the founder of McMillian Leadership Coaching and an active duty army officer with over 16 years of leadership experience, and I'm on a mission to create more purposeful and accountable leaders, and my vision is to positively affect 1 million lives in the next 10 years by sharing transformational skills and stories.

Speaker 1: 0:47

On today's episode, I'm going to be interviewing Leanne Myers. She is the author of Climbing the Spiral Staircase, a guide for women seeking to gain control of their professional paths. She directs the Carnegie Mellon Women's Executive Leadership Academy and is the former director for the University Accelerate Leadership Center. She has over 30 years of senior level consulting and executive development experience and provides some amazing wisdom. In this episode and, as always, stay to the end and I'm going to give you the top three takeaways that you should have from Leanne. Let's go ahead and bring her on. Leanne, welcome to the Tales of Leadership podcast. It's always an honor and a privilege to have people take the time out of their day and talk about my passion, which is leadership. How are you doing?

Speaker 2: 1:39

I'm good, but I'm curious about you. You have a long day, so for you to still have energy for these conversations at nighttime is quite something.

Speaker 1: 1:47

Yeah, Well, I'll talk about a long day. So I was at work since six o'clock this morning and I literally just got back five minutes before, which I kind of felt bad. You're waiting in the waiting room for a little bit.

Speaker 2: 2:00

No, you've got a lot going on. I'm impressed you're keeping this all going.

Speaker 1: 2:03

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 2:17

Well, no, you've got a lot going on. I'm impressed you're keeping this all going. Yeah Well, thank you. With that, it's really'm born in South Africa, so I think I'm.

Speaker 2: 2:27

I suppose I don't often think of myself as an immigrant, but my kids remind me consistently that I'm an immigrant. So I come from South Africa and, like many people from South Africa who've traveled to explore work opportunities, we've lived in Europe and sort of we got to America via Europe. So I feel like I've had a circuitous path that I think for many leaders and I'm sure probably you've seen this in the military like you make decisions or you go to places based on need and requirements and family situation and job opportunity, and so I sort of feel like I don't have a very integrated story. I mean, I know we're going to talk about the book, but I called it the Spiraling Staircase because I feel I've gone in a lot of circles but hopefully always towards a level of consciousness. So I'm from South Africa and I know your interest is in leadership and for me, I think when I've, I feel like I stood into leadership roles sort of throughout nursery school, high school, those kinds of experiences, but I think when I became very conscious of leadership as a concept and as an area of study was.

Speaker 2: 3:37

I studied industrial psychology undergrad at college and there I just, I think, much like you, I just found a love.

Speaker 2: 3:43

I love for this field and I love for an interest, and so my interest was very much on what does it take for people to feel motivated and engaged and want to thrive in places at work? And it has so much to do with who their leaders are. And so that was where my interest started. And then it was only when I got to the states that more and more of my coaching clients and I know you have a number of coaching clients more and more of my coaching clients were women, and I started seeing very similar patterns that I started thinking, oh, there's something I really want to do in the women's space. And so it was only when I got to the States that I immersed myself more and more in women experiences and then got involved in universities, and that's kind of where I find myself now. I feel like I'm always best when I kind of straddle industry and academia. Those two places work well for me as a place to work from.

Speaker 1: 4:35

Industrial psychology. That is such an interesting degree. So my bachelor's degree is in criminal psychology.

Speaker 2: 4:42

Okay.

Speaker 1: 4:43

Yeah, I know right, there's some similar. I don't know if there's similarities there or not, but industrial psychology where did you go to school at? That's interesting.

Speaker 2: 4:52

So I went to school in South Africa and I think what's to me is interesting there's probably a lot of similarities because I think largely it's the study of human nature. If you think and you know you're looking at when probably human nature crosses legal boundaries and for me it was human nature in places of work. So industrial psychology, as opposed to clinical or other parts of psychology, is really looking at how do people thrive in workplaces?

Speaker 1: 5:21

I love that. Yeah, so that was a lot of criminal psychology is what motivates people behind like criminal acts and then when they do commit a criminal act, kind of identifying them to allow law enforcement to define them rather quickly. So I'd love to kind of hear from that study what was kind of your thesis, what did you find that motivates people?

Speaker 2: 5:43

What was kind of your thesis? What did you find that motivates people? I think it was both a combination of what I studied but living in South Africa through the transformation of the country, and I think what I was very clear of is that I think you can motivate people in a short-term way by threats or rewards or bribes or whatever it is that allows for a lot of, I think, short-term way, by like threats or rewards or bribes or whatever it is that that allows for a lot of, I think, short-term performance. But I think if you want to sustain, in my world, like from a career perspective, if you want to sustain leadership ambition over time, I think the only way to motivate people is to give them a vision of themselves or of the organization of a team that they can live into. And so to me, ultimately, I feel that that's what motivates and engage people is if people have a vision of the future that's compelling, they get motivated now.

Speaker 2: 6:36

I find if you have no vision of the future, you don't wait to the future to get demotivated. You get demotivated now. So for me, I feel what I work with most probably with leaders is how do they create compelling visions and share them in ways that inspire people to live into those visions, and I think as a coach, that's what I do as well is help people sort of catch sight of who they can be in the future. And so, for me, I always feel like I work a lot with visions, whether personal or corporate or units, but I think that, to me, is what motivates people.

Speaker 1: 7:13

Yeah, I think vision is.

Speaker 1: 7:15

It's really powerful in terms of when I've commanded organizations before and I really understood the power of it when I took over my first company Rifle Company Command.

Speaker 1: 7:27

Before that job I was an observer, coach, trainer, so I just got to see like 26 different rotations and 26 different Joshes in the job that I was getting ready to take and I saw what worked and what didn't work and really what it was. And it kind of goes down to the definition of what I define leadership, as is the ability to inspire. And I think what you're saying too in terms of a vision is that if the vision of where you're wanting to take someone inspires them, then they're going to be bought into what you want to do, but if it's like, eh, I don't, I don't get excited about that. So I had a good friend of mine I'd love to hear what your thoughts is on this. Talk about head and heart alignment and when I heard that it was like boom, it was like an epiphany. Is that if you can see it but you can also feel it emotion create alignment between your head and your heart then your hands will automatically want to do the work.

Speaker 2: 8:29

Oh, I love that. Yeah, no, I think you're right and I think you know. To me, the example of that, coming from South Africa, was when Nelson Mandela came into power. That's what he did, if you think. He came into a country that was unbelievably separated, very bitter, after years of sort of political strife, and he created a vision and he called it the Rainbow Nation, and by calling it the Rainbow Nation, he gave all people, regardless of race, a way to see themselves in this future, and so he was remarkable at doing that, and you're right. If someone can describe it and you can feel it in your heart, then, yeah, it compels you to want to act and build something. So, no, I think you're right, it's very powerful.

Speaker 1: 9:07

Yeah, so okay. So you completed your degree. When did you make your way to America? Is that where you started your coaching journey, or yeah?

Speaker 2: 9:19

Well, yes, I only started coaching in America. So what was interesting is we? So I did both my undergrad and my master's in industrial psychology at the University of Johannesburg, so I completed that there. But what was interesting and I know I think I'm correct, I think you have kids, yeah, absolutely first, son, and South Africa was finally liberated. And we, you know, for a long time you'd been almost embarrassed, as a white South African, to travel and we were like, okay, we just want to travel. And our goal was our son was young and we were like we want to travel and live on different continents and get back to South Africa so our eldest could start elementary school.

Speaker 2: 10:01

So we just headed out and we took jobs wherever there were opportunities and so we headed. So I mean, we were, I was married, my husband and I were now probably I don't know we were now late twenties. We had one kid and we just thought we were just going to live on each different continents and find a job and see what we did. And so we lived just outside London and we worked there, we spent time in Europe, we lived in Ireland and we came to America. It was supposed to be a one-year gig. So we came to America for a one-year gig so that we would be back in South Africa for my eldest to start school and at that point we'd had another kid. So I have two sons and we'd got pets and all the things that we were traveling circus. And when we got to the States I just I fell in love with where we lived. I just it's. I know Pittsburgh gets a bad rap in this country. I think people see Pittsburgh.

Speaker 1: 10:55

Are you from Pittsburgh? Well, no, I'm a Steelers fan, so I grew up in like rural West Virginia, so I was like three hours away from Pittsburgh. I would go there all the time.

Speaker 2: 11:04

Beautiful city. It's beautiful. So we got here and I, just I fell in love with the city and I fell in love with the neighborhoods, and I had two young sons. And what I loved is I would go to work and I would get calls from the neighbors going do you know what your boys are doing now? You know, like it was just, it was just very communal. And it was just very communal and it was, and so I, just I really wanted to spend some time bringing my kids up here. So we, we chose to stay, stay here, and that's we never left. We're still here, our family's still in South Africa, so we visit a lot. So sorry so I'm, I'm getting a bit sidetracked. So we, we, we get to the states and I had not done coaching until we got to America and at the time I was doing workshop programming, but it was really interesting.

Speaker 2: 11:46

I was working in financial services, but during a boom time there was a lot of money, and the clients I was working with were basically saying we like what you're doing in a workshop, but can't you do it one-on-one with us? And so you know, coming from a country like I came from, which is a developing country, they're not enormous resources. So I was shocked that companies would make money available for a coach to work one-on-one with the person where we would literally like have workshops with 60 or 70 people in. So for me, I love coaching, I know it's highly effective, but it feels like an enormous luxury, and so I feel countries like America that make these resources are available. I feel like this is where I learned my skill sets, because I don't know how many other countries would have put this amount of resource behind developing leaders one-on-one. So, yes, so that's a very long way, joshua, of saying my coaching started in the States.

Speaker 1: 12:44

You said something that is powerful Coaching is luxury, and that's so true is that I've never I guess I never thought about that and you probably think I'm crazy that I do 100% free coaching for military. So part of one of the DOD policies they just released is called the Army Coaching Program. So they'll take a Army officer or non-commissioned officer that have a certain level of tenure and they'll take them through an ICF-accoded coaching program and then at the end of the day you go back and you take a coaching hat into your organization and you try to cultivate a coaching culture. If I would have known and I'm telling you, if I would have known what I'd known when I was a company commander, when I used to lead like hundreds of men and women, I would have been a phenomenal leader. And it kind of kicks myself in the butt is that I wish I would have found a coach, because it's 100% free resource if you're in the military and you're listening, you just could find one. It would have made me such a better leader.

Speaker 2: 13:52

Oh, totally, I think I mean to me. What's so interesting is I'm not sure if you're aware of Project Oxygen. It was a project that was done with Google, and there was a time where Google felt there were too many leaders and they weren't sure you know what good they were doing, and so they got rid of a lot of management levels. But there was, as you can imagine, a lot of struggles around coordination and delegation and those things, so they reintroduced leaders. But what was great is they looked very thoughtfully at what are the behaviors that we know really make a difference for leaders.

Speaker 2: 14:28

And, to your point, coaching skills was one of the main ones, and so we know. I think it is such a helpful style for a leader to assume a kind of coaching stance Because, to your point, you're highly effective, it's a very inclusive way of leading, it's a thoughtful, empathic way of leading, and so, no, I agree, I think it is powerful and it's amazing to me if the military makes that available to everyone. That's wonderful. And, to your point, if you want to be a good leader, one of the best ways is to learn really good coaching skills.

Speaker 1: 14:59

I think that's one of the most beautiful things, that it's never came up in any of my podcast episodes yet is that the common denominator that makes a great leader is their ability to put on a coaching hat. And I don't think a lot of people understand what a coach truly is, because when I first started, you have a mentor, you can have a mentor, you can have a counselor, and then you can kind of have a coach, and a coach is completely different. So would would you mind maybe separating and explaining what a coach is?

Speaker 2: 15:33

sure. So how, I think, I suppose, how, how I, how I separate. It's interesting. You use coach and, and I think that's great, because if you think a coach is someone who sort of comes next to you and talks with you and a mentor is someone that you kind of talk up to, or they talk to you and a sponsor talks about you, you know, like they sponsor you somewhere.

Speaker 2: 15:55

So I think that's how it's separate there, but how I've always separated it, cause in my world I think people struggle to separate what is a coach, what is a therapist and what is a consultant.

Speaker 2: 16:07

And so if I think of that continuum. So if we think of therapy like on one side of the continuum, so therapy to me is about mental health and well-being and it's often looking to your past to make you successful now. So that to me is how I kind of think of therapy. And then I think on the other side. I think of consulting. We're consulting in workplaces. If you bring consultants in, they come in to tell you what to do, like they are the experts, they're the solution providers. They come in and tell you what to do, where coaching to me kind of falls a bit in the middle and some may agree with me that they may think it should fall more in the therapy side. To me, or what's worked for me as a coach is I'm coming alongside someone, I'm helping them find solutions that are successful for them.

Speaker 2: 16:58

But I do find I am a little instructive and I know that's not fully coaching. But I find a lot of my clients are very impatient, they're very driven and they kind of are like what, if I've got to sit and figure this all out myself, I don't need a coach to help me. So I think that that's a coach. I mean, almost everyone in this country has played sports at some time, whether it was sort of YSUCK or someone. So a coach was someone who looked at you, saw your talents, guided you, helped you fit in, gave you feedback, listened to your concerns, helped you figure out solutions. That's how I think of coaching. But in the practice of my coaching I feel sometimes I slip into instruction just because I think my clients value it and I feel like we're so crunched for time. But that's sort of, I suppose, how in my mind I always go there's a therapist, there's a coach and there's a consultant is how I would think of it.

Speaker 1: 17:54

Yeah, I love that and I think sometimes too, that's a beautiful way of describing it. And so coaching is it pulls from your past I wrote this down and it charts a course for your future. So I think it's kind of the blend of all of those a therapist, a consultant and a coach. And when I've had a couple clients, I think you have to understand when to be a little bit more assertive. Some people need hey, here's the plan, execute it. And even some of the clients that I've had because I've been in the military and I am in the military is that they want that rigid structure sometimes, which is interesting. But I think every person is different.

Speaker 2: 18:32

Yeah, and if I can just interrupt, what to me is so interesting is I ran a leadership center at our university for many years and we had a lot of vets come in, so lots of veterans coming through our leadership center, and what to me was always so interesting, joshua, was how many of them had so much experience in leadership you know because by like, just listening to you talk, but at a very young age you were leading platoons, like.

Speaker 2: 18:59

so if you think of like, you know the average age of an MBA student is about 27. So if you think how many other 27 year olds have had significant leaders and how wide their leadership experience has been, from very young ages.

Speaker 1: 19:32

That is a critical point. And that's beautiful too is that when I was 23, I had my first platoon that I took over in Afghanistan, and that was 44 soldiers. And then, when I was 27, I had my first company command of 130 soldiers and millions of dollars of equipment. And then, when I was 32, I had my second company command, or, sorry, 29. I had my second company command of 250. So I've never thought of it in that lens, is that the leadership experience that I've had outweighs my age? I, if that makes sense- I think it does.

Speaker 2: 20:13

I, I, you know, I think myself and all our colleagues were always blown away at the sophistication and the nuance and the understanding of what it is to lead at very young ages. So we would get all the students in and our goal was to develop them as leaders during the MBA time with us, and so many of the vets were just at a very different place when it came to leadership because of their experience.

Speaker 1: 20:36

What were some of the common? Because that's really one of my big passions, that I'm looking at doing is trying to promote transformational leadership practices and skills, because what I've seen is that there's two paths that leaders can take at a fundamental like, at that molding point in their career. They can either view people as an asset, if that makes sense, plant and let them grow, let them mature, and then when they harvest right, it's not just a win, it's continuing able to win. Or they can view them as a transitional stepping stone is that you may work for me, but I'm going to use you to get to the next position, and I've seen it both in the military and the civilian force, where I go into acquisition, and with the civilian side. What were some of the common themes with those individuals that were applying for the MBA program?

Speaker 2: 21:28

So with the vets who were coming through or with the civilians who are coming through?

Speaker 1: 21:32

If you have the time, I'd love to hear both.

Speaker 2: 21:35

Okay, no, you know, I think what to me was interesting with the vets coming through is, I think, as you were commenting now, I think they often didn't realize how much experience they had. I think they see civilian life as so different to military life that they don't understand the depth of their military experience as leaders, just as straight up leaders. So I think they often discount how much leadership experience they have and how much they understand human nature.

Speaker 2: 22:04

So, I think that's what vets didn't understand. They could have felt far more confident in the leadership skills they brought. I do think the challenge was in a civilian environment is so in a military environment you can lead, and not that people will choose to do this, but you can lead by command and control. There is a line of authority. There's a line of command.

Speaker 2: 22:26

And so it's pretty helpful and pretty straightforward because that is all specified upfront and people know how to act within those norms, and so I feel the biggest challenge many of the vets had was going into civilian leadership roles was understanding how often you have to have influence with no authority. So you know how do you walk around things, how do you help people go in. You can't be directive. Command and control is not accepted in many environments. So I think that was the biggest challenge was this idea that there is no line of command and even if there is, people expect you to show up in a far more inclusive fashion. So I felt that was the challenge, I think, for many of our vets coming through and then I think for our other students. So again, if you think of the age, the average age is 27. And the people who are coming through our program were just smart, like really bright people.

Speaker 2: 23:22

And I think, for many students who are moving into leadership roles, it's hard to understand that it doesn't matter that you're the smartest person in the room.

Speaker 2: 23:32

So like you may, be the smartest person in the room, but if you're not emotionally intelligent and you don't know how to read the room and you don't know how to take people with you, you're going to not be very effective. And so I think there's this challenge of if something is logical and we know it to be right and I'm smart like how can it not make sense, how can we not move in a certain direction? So I think for those students it was more like do I really have to listen to someone who maybe I don't respect as much intellectually, or I've got to play politics, or I've got to listen to all these things? So I think for both of them, influence was the big problem, but coming from very different places.

Speaker 1: 24:14

Yeah, I love that. So the military influence with no authority. And, to be 100% honest, I kind of ran through that struggle a couple years ago when I went into acquisitions so dealing is cost schedule, performance, managing a program, working with civilian DOD still active duty military but how do I motivate people that I do not have direct authority over or influence over, that have wildly amazing education backgrounds I'm talking like from Stanford and Yale and Harvard, like deep engineering degrees, have a depth of experience that blows me away, like retired colonels. And here's this happy major coming into a room trying to get them on a vision, trying to be a shepherd to take them to the journey. And what I really found out and I'd love to hear it dawned on me finally is it's all about relationships.

Speaker 1: 25:12

If you can build authentic relationships, then it does two things it cultivates trust and I think trust happens in two forms that I've learned in the military through either like crucible events, like being out in an operational experience with someone, or a tough environment, or frequency. And if you're with someone long enough, you start to develop trust because you know who that person is. And then, when you build that trust, then you start earning respect and then people just have this reputation. It's like, okay, josh may be young, but he genuinely cares about us and his word is gold. And once you have that reputation, then you build that relationship. Then I think you're unstoppable. It's like a tire with traction you can just keep going.

Speaker 2: 25:57

I think it's exactly that. I think you're right. I think it is it's relationships, it's building trust, and I think this probably sounds a little Machiavellian, but in the situation you were describing, it also had to do with probably give and take. You had something they needed, they had something they knew. So people are probably also aware of the power at play in terms of who needed what and how, and if you understand that, you can also work effectively. I think.

Speaker 1: 26:23

Yeah, and that was another beautiful thing and you kind of hinted to it as well is that you have to understand what your strengths are. Kind of going into a team and it took me a really long time to to discover what my strengths were. But how do I employ those strengths? Right, because people on my team have wildly different strengths and if I can't figure out what my dead space is, meaning that, okay, I have my, I have my focus area of where my strengths are and where I'm good at, but if I go out to the left or right, that's my dead space. I'm not good in that area, but there's people on my team whose strengths cover my dead space and if we can do that, then we become a better organization. And how can I leverage their strengths to the best possible ability to cover my strengths? At the end of the day, just winning as an organization.

Speaker 1: 27:13

The other thing that I love that you talked about is people who I think don't have that depth of leadership experience, focus and rely on their education Like, oh well, this is what the book said. So I have to go to it and I've identified like one of the practices that leaders have to break when they first start and not go down that transitional path is by the book. So if you go by the book as a leader, you start to fall into pitfalls, because this may sound crazy, I guess, to some people, but I think part of being a leader is learning how to live with risk and mitigating risk, operating in that gray and then if you rely on your education and what the book told you to do there is never going to be a perfect answer. That is a book. It's just not going to happen. And if it does, then it's probably not a real scenario. It's probably a training exercise.

Speaker 2: 28:10

No, and to that point, what was interesting, what we actually did as well at the university is we would run what we would call failure labs. Because, to your point, when you sort of are well-educated and you're bright, you're really not used to making mistakes, so you don't like making mistakes. But if you look at successful entrepreneurs or successful leaders, what they're able to do is make a mistake, learn from it really quickly and redirect, and so, to your point, there will be no progress if we're not taking some risk, if we're not trying something new, because then we to me, then we're just offering imitation. If we're just meeting requirements of what we've been told or what the situation demands, that's not leadership, that's You're just a competent worker bee doing your thing. That's not leading.

Speaker 2: 28:56

So if we're looking for transformation or innovation or any of the things we know organizations are desperate for, it takes risk. But the minute you move into risky behavior you're going to make mistakes and most people, I think, who are really good, who are perfectionists, are so scared of making mistakes that they don't take risk. But that keeps them in these kind of middle management, worker bee type positions, which we appreciate them for because they're doing tasks beautifully, but there's none of the transformation you're talking about. So I know, I think it's vital to to learn to just make mistakes, learn from them. I mean thoughtful, not make them, you know, not just because you want to make a mistake, but if you make a mistake, it's how quickly do you recover? That's, I think, is very important as a leader.

Speaker 1: 29:40

There's a thing that we do in the military and it's so simple. Most of everything I do in my life, I follow the KISS rule, so keep it simple. Stupid, yeah, but it's an after action review, so an AAR. So what were we supposed to do? What did we do? How can we improve and then go take action again and just do it, and it's just a loop. And to kind of give you a real world example of what I'm struggling with with my team right now so I manage a small drone that we filled out to the army and we're in the process of doing a second iteration and we're in this rapid prototyping and it's it's really hard for the team to conceptualize.

Speaker 1: 30:18

With this alpha demonstration that we're doing. Birds are going to crash into trees, like the drones are going to crash into trees. They're going to fall out of the sky because the hardware is not locked, the software is not locked. And but what we're going to learn from this event? The vendors are going to take it on to betas and they're going to improve, and then that for betas it's probably going to happen again, maybe not as bad, but then at the next test event it's going to be even better. And and the vision is that we're going to be able to field a disruptive small UAS technology that soldiers can use, that'll fit in their rucksack and is going to save lives and it took me a while to kind of figure that, but that was beautifully said is that failure is incremental and I don't think we ever truly fail as long as we keep trying.

Speaker 2: 31:02

But what I love is what you shared in that example is such a strong vision that you're obviously sharing with your team. This is what we're going to develop the small drone that can fit in the backpack and save lives. So I'm all in, like already, I'm like oh, there's a vision that's inspiring, so I'm going to work it. And then you've got to create the environment as you're describing. How do we make a mistake and learn from it? Like, if we're so careful with these drones and we're too scared to let them fly and too scared to let them bump into trees, then we're not going to develop the technology. We need to take the risk. And how do we learn? And I love it. It's interesting you talk and this is more just a sidebar when you were talking about an after action review.

Speaker 2: 31:39

Yeah, what to me is interesting I'm working with a corporate team at the moment, so a civilian team. But what I love is, you know, I think all leaders struggle so much with difficult conversations. They're hard to have, but if they use the format that you've just shared, after action reviews just become wonderful ways to have difficult conversations. So it's not about, you know, sort of shouting at someone, it's not about tripping someone up, it's not about pointing out errors, it's but as a mechanism for just great team learning and, without realizing it, people are having a difficult conversation. So it's perfect.

Speaker 1: 32:22

That's another beautiful thing that you brought up too is like radical candor. I don't know if you've ever read the book by Kim Scott, yeah. So how can you be respectful with someone, someone, but challenge them directly? And that's the science of it. And the military, I think, does a beautiful job. I remember when I first started, my boss was going to tell me, josh, you have to have thick skin, but at the end of the day, it's not having people call you out, but it's people identifying faults. And you may have been the issue, but at the end of the day, if I succeed, the team succeeds. And on my shirt, the back of this slogan that I have, it has team of teams. That was our company motto is that if you're successful, the team's successful, and it's not about us, it's about the legacy of our organization. So when I was a company commander, if our battalion is doing well, we are doing well, and if we are doing well, then at the individual soldier, they're doing well and that's beautiful.

Speaker 2: 33:24

I love that and I just feel in corporate environments I feel there's very little radical candor.

Speaker 2: 33:30

I think we know there are a few examples of companies that use that model, but not many, and I often think that's why people appreciate coaching so much. Often I feel with my clients what they love more than anything is they're actually getting 360 feedback, because no one's giving them the straight answer, no one's telling them what's really going on, and so with coaching it's a more structured process so you can get 360. But really I feel all that my clients are finally getting radical, candid feedback, you know, and it's the only way, I think, to change performance, because otherwise it's ambiguous feedback and no one knows where to go and what to do and what's important. And so I know I love the candor of a coaching process and specifically when people get 360 degree feedback, because it just helps people understand where they are for the first time normally in their careers.

Speaker 1: 34:20

All right, team, let's take a quick break from this podcast and I want to personally invite you to our private Facebook community that I call Purposeful Accountable Leaders, or PALS, and PALS is a community dedicated to inspiring and developing servant leaders by sharing transformational stories and skills Exactly what tells the leadership is all about. My goal is to build a community of like-minded leaders that can share lessons, learn, ask questions and celebrate wins when it happens. And my mission in life is clear I will end toxic leadership by sharing transformational stories and skills, and you will find countless transformational leaders in this group, many of them I have had the honor to serve with in the military. If you want to find a community that can help you grow both personally and professionally, we would love to have you. You can simply search Purposeful Accountable Leaders on Facebook or click the Leadership Resources tab in the show notes to join. I am looking forward to seeing you guys and continuing to grow together on our leadership journey.

Speaker 1: 35:22

Back to the podcast, so I would love to kind of transition over to your book, I think Climbing the Spiral Staircase, and kind of walk me up to like write that right before the moment that you decided to write a book, because I love to journal and I've already felt like five or six notebooks, but I can still never visualize me ever writing a book, because it seems like such a daunting task. What motivated you to write it?

Speaker 2: 35:49

I think to me again it's that resource question is that you know, at a university, in a business school that's beautifully resourced and we look after a very small number of students with all these resources, especially for women, during the pandemic how many women were choosing to opt out or downshift or downgrade their careers? It was getting alarming because the numbers were. You know, the projections were that we're going to go back to kind of 20 years because women have just changed and rethought ambition. And so my idea with the book was how do I take all the learning that we're making available to very few women and sort of distribute it in the quickest way? And a book was that way. I think a book is the fastest way to get a lot of people the same information that are not going to potentially have access to a business school or want to study an MBA, and so you know, it was a way of kind of democratizing that knowledge. I think is how I think of the book.

Speaker 1: 36:55

Wow. So, without giving the book away, what would be a couple tips that you can share?

Speaker 2: 37:04

I think so. The book is focused on women, but if you have daughters or you lead women on your team, I would encourage you to read it. So what the book does is you know, I think for many of us and I don't know if you feel that way you know you sort of go to 2022 in America. Why are we still talking about women's issues, like, surely we've dealt with all of this? And so what the book does? It really just shares in a very evidence-based way what the real biases are at work, like, what are these unconscious biases? How do they play out? But, more importantly, my big worry is everyone loves admiring the problem, but no one gives strategies to fix it.

Speaker 1: 37:43

So what I do is Call it out, but don't fix it.

Speaker 2: 37:46

Yeah. So I kind of map the biases that women will bump into in workplaces, things like double bind, how they get feedback, what happens in meetings, so very tactical experiences of when you're a young woman starting work. Because really, if you look at what happens with women, if you measure their confidence, ambition when they start and two years into their career, it's alarming how quickly women's confidence and ambition plummets because of ambiguous workplaces. So workplaces where feedback is given differently to women, performance management looks different, double like they're just dealing with a host of challenges that men are not dealing with, and so my book kind of lays out what those challenges are, but then strategies for how to mitigate, how to be successful in a world that's a little complicated around gender, and so I suppose in a nutshell, that's the book.

Speaker 1: 38:41

You're going to love my background because I think I'm going to be a case study. So, as an infantry officer, when I first started it was only male combat arms and you know, in between going through uh, infantry, spending my time, they finally opened it up into, um, women being able to join and I'm telling you like that stressed me out so much because not from a standpoint of not ever serving under a woman or leading a woman, but how do I communicate? Because I've always been around males and if I had that book? Because so now, for example, like my colonel for PMUAS and 06 level is a female, she is a phenomenal leader and my 05 civilian leader I won't say her name, she is a phenomenal leader and there's so many people on my team that work with me that are above me that are female and it kind of broke that whole mindset is that. But I, but I had to be put into that environment.

Speaker 2: 39:39

I love that no, because I think to me what's sad. I sort of feel like I thank you for being so honest, because I think that's the challenge. If you've always been in a male environment and you've led teams of men, it is going to be a little alarming if, oh, okay, now they're going to be women in the mix, and so I think it is important to go okay. So what are going to be the challenges? Is it going to be different? What are the differences? What are the differences that are important? What are differences that are unimportant? And then, how do I manage them? And as much as you would do as a leader with personalities, I always find it amazing. People want to tell me they're.

Speaker 2: 40:15

Myers-Briggs, or they want to tell me this assessment or that assessment. But you mentioned gender and everyone gets all like, oh no, I don't want to talk about gender where it's just another lens, the fact like when I'm looking at you, I can see that you're presenting as a man, and so they're going to be certain unconscious biases at play. So let's understand them and so that I can be a better inclusive leader. And so I'm always surprised at how we sort of don't want to talk about gender when it's just, it's real. And if we spend all our time trying to understand human nature, we need to understand the world with a gender lens as well, because it's how we're judging people.

Speaker 1: 40:48

So I think that that is so beautiful and I'm kind of like I'm trying to figure out how to break that right now in my mind. So Indiograms is something that I really really want to dig into because I think that that keeping it simple stupid you know there's nine basic profile types is that you can categorize anyone in, but like leading a woman versus leading a man, if I can categorize you quickly in one of these nine categories, at the end of the day, what makes a leader successful is their ability to collaborate and to communicate. If I can collaborate with you and I can communicate with you because I know what your profile type is, then I can lead you and that is the most important thing and it starts building that trust, building that respect that we talked about. Have you had any experience with the Enneagrams?

Speaker 2: 41:36

Yeah, I have had.

Speaker 2: 41:38

Sorry, I want to get to the Enneagram now, but I think sometimes, just to go back to your question about gender and working with gender, I think what's also helpful as a leader is also to know okay, I spend so many hours in a day in meetings If we know in meetings who talks more, who's interrupted more, whose ideas are appropriated, and if there is a gender bias to this and we know there is, there's a lot of evidence around that then as a leader now I can run my meetings differently.

Speaker 2: 42:05

Or if I'm going to be looking at resumes and if I know if I look at a blind resume I'm more likely to pick someone than if I see a woman's name and she's in a PTA, then I should use blind resumes. And so that's what I think is important as a leader when it comes to gender is I think sometimes it's so hard to de-bias ourselves, but we can certainly de-bias all the processes we work with and just run really good best practices. So what's best practice around a meeting, best practice around a performance management, best practice around selection? I think that's great for leaders to think about as well.

Speaker 1: 42:41

So you have one thing that I really want to share that the Army is doing that I love. Is that so in our professional resumes it's called ORB, so an officer readiness or an ORB I can't even think of the word right now. Anyway, I'll look up the acronym, I can't think of it but they take off your pictures. So it's just what you've done, what your degrees are, where you're from. But they take off your pictures and before I'm the stereotypical infantry officer, right, like I'm tall, I'm skinny, I can run really fast, I got a jawline Before.

Speaker 1: 43:17

I would be treated differently, I would you know, and that's just the nature of it. Have one bad seed that kind of has those perceptions and continues to lead with those perceptions, the amount of people that they can ruin throughout their career is just absolutely mind-boggling. I've seen great men and women get out of the military for just one bad leader, just one bad leader, and I can probably count more good leaders than I've had bad leaders, but what always pops in my mind are the worst leaders that I've ever had, because they're so powerful.

Speaker 2: 43:56

Yeah, no, huge, hugely powerful. So no, I agree, I think I'm excited to hear, I just think there's so many elegant, quick best practices we can use, like just take photographs of that change the world for so many people. So, no, thank you for sharing that example. As for the Enneagram, so to me it's really interesting. I've used the Enneagram more from a spiritual practice perspective and so my exposure to the Enneagram has largely come through spiritual teachers because, as you know, we have our dark side and our strength, and so it was interesting to me when you were talking about StrengthsFinder earlier, because if you see the Enneagram as kind of a mode for spiritual development, it becomes a place to think through. You know, what are the parts of me that need to be resolved? Because they're dark parts in the Enneagram as well as light. So, no, I think it's lovely.

Speaker 2: 44:55

The closest I've seen, I've seen probably two commercial organizations take the versions of the Enneagram and use it, I think, highly effectively as assessments, which is you probably talking about, and where I find and I'm curious how you want to use it, how I found it most helpful from a coaching practice. It helps me understand, like core motivation, because, to the point that you were talking about is that you can. For example, I was gathering 360 feedback for a client this morning who I'm coaching and a lot of people keep saying which is really interesting they keep saying he doesn't. It's clear to them he doesn't have passion for his role, like they're looking for engagement passion. But what to me is clear in Enneagram language in many ways it's not.

Speaker 2: 45:47

His role is not at a very deep level, meeting his core motivation, like the thing that's going to drive him and power him, and I think that, to me, is where Enneagram is helpful. It helps you, I think, really choose right role, like you know, are people in the right role? Is your team deployed with the right role? Are they using the strengths that you were talking about? So I think yeah. I'm curious, like, how would you be thinking of using the Enneagram?

Speaker 1: 46:11

I see some similarities between those exact same things and I'm getting ready to start, because I'm an avid reader and the next book that I'm going to be reading is the Way Back to you, kind of walking through the Enneagram and really digging into that. But the way I guess I kind of see is exactly what you just said is what motivates you and how do you absorb information and how do you communicate that information? Because I think that's the first fundamental level of leading someone is how you can absorb information, how you give information. And then what is your overarching motivator? Do you want to do a really good work in your job or do you want to chase significance versus success? And then, if I know that, then I can discover what your individual strengths are and then I can put you in the perfect role to just absolutely succeed.

Speaker 1: 47:03

And to me, the secret of life for fulfillment because I'm just an acronym wizard, so I call it the three Ps is you have to have perspective, you have to have passion and you have to have a purpose. And when you connect those three together, I think that's what gives fulfillment. And at the end of the day, what great leaders do is they give a sense of fulfillment to people on their team because they're able to connect those things. And I know there's a way to do that and I'm still, I guess, the Tunkman model. I'm still kind of forming through that in my brain.

Speaker 2: 47:37

Yeah, oh no, I think you're going to like the Enneagram work then a lot. I think it's fascinating, there's so much there.

Speaker 1: 47:43

I think it's with our psychology backgrounds that I love reading psychology-based books. They're so fascinating. One of my favorite books to read is Influence. Have you ever read that one? Yeah, yeah, I love that book. Okay, so kind of on your leadership journey right now where do you want to be in five to 10 years and what do you want to impact?

Speaker 2: 48:12

in five to 10 years and what do you want to impact? So I think my work, the two main focuses of my work, is I want to help women thrive in careers Like to me. I think it's sad. I think, because of how we socialized and because of the things women bump up at in workplaces, they often feel they're deficient and they don't catch sight of, kind of all the beauty they can bring to the places they work. So I would want to help women understand you're not deficient, there's some things you're bumping up against and let's work around them. I can help you navigate that.

Speaker 2: 48:39

So I think I would want I mean, a big interest of mine is helping women achieve that and then, from a leadership perspective, regardless of gender, achieve that and then, from a leadership perspective, regardless of gender, I think I really want people to understand what are the evidence-based strategies that create inclusive environments. I think a lot of people like talking inclusion. You know, I think we think certain things are inclusive or not, but there's, I think, some wonderful social science research that's going on now. That's really oh sorry.

Speaker 1: 49:08

I just saw your kid. Oh, I love it. So that's a beautiful thing. So I have a five-year-old and I have a nine-year-old, and that's why I love like filming at home is that I think part of being a leader is being authentic and kind of accepting the whole thing.

Speaker 2: 49:32

So, yeah, my son's a wild man and he's going to unlock my door and just come in every once in a while. I know I love it, it was lovely seeing him. So, josh, to go back, so I think there's the women's side, and then there's the other side, and so those are the two things I would want to work on, so that's my main focus, for sure.

Speaker 1: 49:43

Yeah, the little man's distracted you with his cuteness.

Speaker 2: 49:46

No, he's so cute. I just remember that age and I remember my kids and I'm like, oh, and he's like, and he's charming, he's like it's just no, it's lovely. Yeah, it was lovely to be distracted by him.

Speaker 1: 50:02

No, well, that's awesome. So the last kind of question before we get to the final show segment is I would love to hear you know throughout your leadership journey I call it your house of leadership, but it's essentially like your leadership philosophy how you lead people.

Speaker 2: 50:20

How has your leadership philosophy kind of changed over the years or matured? I felt that people with an external locus of control just needed to whip themselves into shape and develop an internal locus of control.

Speaker 2: 50:34

So, I'm a big, you know, pull yourself up. That's how I was brought up. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You're not a victim. You can take on everything you find by yourself.

Speaker 2: 50:45

So I think when I'd initially come at leadership and initially my work was all about, stop being a victim, like you know, pick yourself up by your bootstraps. But then I think the more, the older I've got, probably, and the more to the point that you're saying, I think, the more toxic work environments I've seen, the more complicated bosses I've seen, the more sort of clear ways that sort of systems can discriminate against people. That shifted for me, because you can keep trying to show up in a specific way and take responsibility for your life and be all that you want to be, but you can really be hurt and manipulated and shaped by things in your environment that often you're not even aware of. So I suppose what's changed for me over time I'd probably be a bit more gentle on people now is I think I was just hard as, like you know, come right back, you know, put up your big girl pants, let's go when now. I think I would.

Speaker 2: 51:43

Being a leader is hard work. I think working is tough and I think I would extend more grace and understand that at different stages people are just going to show up as better leaders. But it's complicated, it's not easy being a leader.

Speaker 1: 51:58

Yeah, I think that your leadership, your house of leadership, foundation of mine are almost the same. So I call it HUGS. I'm an acronym wizard. So humility, understanding, gratitude and having a servant heart, and I think if you can do that, then you're going to be a great leader. That's awesome. It's time for our final show segment that I like to call the killer bees. These are the same four questions that I ask every guest on the Tales of Leadership podcast Be brief, be brilliant, be present and be gone. Question one what do you believe separates an ordinary leader from an extraordinary leader?

Speaker 2: 52:40

Realizing that leadership is not about them, but about the people who are following them.

Speaker 1: 52:44

I love it All right. Question two is what is one resource that you could recommend to our listeners?

Speaker 2: 52:50

Marshall Goldsmith's book what Got you here Won't Get you there An oldie but I think just very behavioral with good tips.

Speaker 1: 52:58

I love that, and if I wrote a book I would have totally just threw out my book with that question.

Speaker 2: 53:03

Oh, okay, sorry.

Speaker 1: 53:04

My book Climbing the Spiral Staircase. No, I'm truly inspired and I am excited to read your book, especially for my professional development. All right, so third question I'm going to get sidetracked, I can't help it. The opportunity if you could go back in time and give your younger self a piece of advice, what would it be?

Speaker 2: 53:23

Oh, that's so hard. Focus more on my career. I sort of feel as a woman. I spent a lot of time making decisions based on family relationships, which is good. My kids have thrived, I think my husband is a happy person. But I feel like you know everyone always goes, oh, enjoy life more, and I was like, no, I could have, I could have been more intentional about my career early on. I was. I would give up things very easily to try and support a family. I think I would be more intentional about my career.

Speaker 1: 53:53

Wow. So last question is how can our listeners find you and how can they add value to you?

Speaker 2: 54:01

So they could go to my website, which is leanemeyercom L-E-A-N-E-M-E-Y-E-Rcom leanemeyercom L-E-A-N-E-M-E-Y-E-Rcom leanemeyercom, so they can find me there and I have my blogs and articles and things, or they could find me on LinkedIn and how they could help. I would love if people bought the book and told me what they think. I look forward to hearing what you think. Joshua, you know I think what's been interesting in writing a book. What I'd never thought about is how different people experience it differently, and so to me, I would love to hear how people what resonates it, because it's interesting hearing what helps people at different times, which improves my coaching practice and improves what I can put back into the world again, whether it's in the written form or anything else. So I would appreciate that.

Speaker 1: 54:49

Yeah, thank you so much for filming this with me. This has been one of my favorite episodes and I needed it today because it's been a long day.

Speaker 2: 54:58

Thank you so much. Thank you, it was lovely chatting and enjoy yourself, and I'm jealous that they're so little.

Speaker 1: 55:03

Yeah, have a great night. All right, team, it's time for our after action review. Here are the top three takeaways you should have from Leanne. So first is influence with no authority. She was walking through her executive MBA program that there are two different types of people that came on board. One of them were military officers, military non-commissioned officers, military soldiers. That got out and the level of influence that they had that was significantly dropped when you go into the civilian side. So you had to quickly learn how to gain influence when you have no authority and we kind of dug into that a little bit deeper is that at the end of the day, you're going to have to learn how to motivate people or inspire people, and it comes down to your ability to build relationships when you're in the military and if you're listening to this, if you're transitioning, you cannot use those same leadership practices that has made you successful in the army or the air force, the Navy, marine, coast Guard, whatever have you. You're going to have to learn a different way of doing it and you're going to have to learn to connect authentically and have relationships.

Speaker 1: 56:22

The second key takeaway that she shared during that same encounter because both of them just stuck with me is that you are not the smartest person in the room and people who just start their leadership journeys if they have no true experience built up yet. They rely on their education, not their experience. Versus, if you're in the military and you get out, you rely on your experience, not your education. But as a leader, you have to have a certain level of humility, understanding that you are not the smartest person in the room or on your team. And if you think you are and I've shared this before in several other episodes is that you're not a leader. You should not be in a leadership position. If you believe you're the smartest person on your team and I'll go back into the metaphor is that you are a lake. You are a metaphorical lake that is a mile wide and a foot deep. You understand all the tools at your disposal and how to maneuver those tools, but your team are whales. They're a mile deep and a foot wide. They're the ones who do the work. They're the ones that have the detailed information and skills to help. Your job is to be a shepherd. Your job is to provide a vision for your team and get them to that desired end state.

Speaker 1: 57:40

The last takeaway came right at the tail end of this, where she started sharing her spark on why she wrote the book and talking about having lens. A lens of leadership is that we all view leadership through our biases our biases of where we came from, culturally, how we were raised, the leadership practices that we learned when we just started out. But what makes a transformational leader, I think, a true, purposeful, accountable leader pal that I like to call is their ability to call out those biases. You have to realize when you are being biased, because to be a true transformational leader, you have to have true diverse teams. And I've been on teams that haven't been diverse and I've been on teams that have been diverse and I'm telling you, when you have a team that is diverse, the level of ingenuity and creativity and motivation that is there far outshines any other team, because you are getting some of the best positive ideas that you can have when you have a diverse team, versus having everyone who thinks exactly the same. So when you're a leader and you're in a leadership role, understand that you're viewing things through your lens and be able to call it out.

Speaker 1: 59:03

If you've gotten any value from today's episode, do me a favor Leave a comment, leave a review, but, more importantly, share this podcast with someone that is just starting out on their leadership journey. I'm your host, josh McMillian, saying every day is a gift. Don't waste yours. I'll see you next time you.