Ep 84 Tales of Leadership with AJ Crabill

Improving student outcomes is AJ Crabill's focus. He serves as Conservator at DeSoto, Texas ISD. During his guidance, DeSoto improved from F ratings in academics, finance, and governance to B ratings. He's also Faculty at the Leadership Institute of Nevada and Director of Governance at the Council of the Great City Schools. He served as Deputy Commissioner at the Texas Education Agency and spearheaded reforms as board chair of Kansas City Public Schools that doubled the percentage of students who are literate and numerate. Crabill is a recipient of the Education Commission of the State's James Bryant Conant Award. 

Connect with AJ Crabill:
-Website: www.GreatOnTheirBehalf.com   
-LinkedIn: https://lnkd.in/eGPsGUzb

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

You're listening to the Tells the Leadership podcast. This podcast is for leaders at any phase on their leadership journey to become a more purposeful and accountable leader what I like to call a pal. Join me on our journey together towards transformational leadership. Welcome back to Tells the Leadership. I'm your host, josh McMillian, an active duty army officer and the founder of McMillian Leadership Coaching, and I am on a mission to create a better leader what I like to call a purposeful, accountable leader and my vision is to positively affect one million lives in the next 10 years, and I plan to do that by sharing transformational stories and skills.

Speaker 1: 0:42

On today's episode, I'm going to be sharing a transformational story from a purposeful, accountable leader AJ Crabble. Aj is an education professional and he is focused on improving the school system for our youth, and his motto in life is student outcomes don't change until adult behaviors change. She's also the author of Great On their Behalf why School Boards Fail and how Yours Can Become Effective. As always, make sure you stick to the end, and I'll provide you with the top three takeaways from this podcast episode. Let's bring on AJ. Aj. Welcome to the Tales of Leadership podcast, brother. How are you doing?

Speaker 2: 1:26

Yeah, I'm well. Thank you so much for having me, Jeff. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:29

So a great place to always start is just take the time to provide who you are to our listeners.

Speaker 2: 1:37

Most of my time is spent either working with school districts around effective leadership at the senior level and the governance level, or working with school systems around discipline and behavior at the school building level.

Speaker 1: 1:53

I love the concept is that you're in the academic arena, right, and you're helping build schools and then also developing young leaders. A lot of the guests that I've had on Tales of Leadership are, you know, senior level military leaders, junior level military leaders, but I've never had anyone yet that's in that academia arena. So I'm really curious of how you define leadership, and that's one of the first questions I love asking. But also, how has that changed over the years as you started going down and discovering?

Speaker 2: 2:27

Yeah, so the classic expectation of leadership, as I've learned it, is that leaders are the folks who do the work, and so if you're looking for people who are in that leadership role, what you're really looking for is people who are rolling up their sleeves and being of service and supporting the entire team and being the best version of itself. If you've got folks who are sitting off aloof and aren't involved in the work, that doesn't match my definition of leadership.

Speaker 1: 2:58

Yeah, the key thing there and I love it is that you have to be switched on. Leaders have to be switched on. Leader leaders have to be switched on. I had a battalion commander tell me that whenever we would mentally get ready to go do you know a training exercise or an operational exercise he's like all right, it's time to switch on. You had to be, you had to be turned on and if you're not, you miss things. And as a leader, that's one of the most critical elements of being in the operational environment, both mentally and physically. So kind of walk me through what drove you to the education field to start this in the first place.

Speaker 2: 3:39

Well, a lot of this was mostly born out of necessity and trying to figure out how to support the needs in my own household and then from that just being called into action increasingly, both as a parent and as a community member, receiving more and more tasks from a community of folks who were in a lot of similar struggles as me, and trying to figure out how to be of service again, both in my own household but then also to the folks around me.

Speaker 1: 4:13

Yeah, and I think that there's a lot of really so to get to where you are now in your leadership journey and you know the books you've been a part of and the book that you just released, there's a lot of great stories. I think that it will really help kind of lead up to that and, and if you're okay with sharing, I would love to kind of know what was some of the adversities that that you've had to walk through, especially a young age till to now. That's really galvanized, aj, that like really set you on this path the moment.

Speaker 2: 4:43

Moment you asked that, the first thing that actually came to mind was the time when I nearly quit. I had recently been elected to the school board and I was serving in that capacity, but it wasn't at all going the way I expected. I don't know what type of fantasy land I was living in when I ran for the school board, but it was decidedly not that. Once I was on the school board, and the difference between my expectations and the reality were so extreme that I actually tried to quit and just leave my leadership post six months after stepping into it. And so I went to some of my elders who had worked really hard to support me getting elected to the school board and let them know hey, this is not what I expected. I'm not able to have the impact on children that I intended to have, and so I'm going to go ahead and resign and let somebody else.

Speaker 2: 5:43

They promptly let me know that they did not put in all of that work to get me elected, for me to punk out in the middle of my duty and that I needed to come up with a different plan and that if things weren't working, that I needed to pivot, but that quitting was not an option that got me turned around. Fortunately, I had some folks in my life who were able to speak that truth and clarify that the lack of character that was giving rise to this desire to quit was an unacceptable condition, and I needed to come up with another way to win, and so I did. But that's that's an example of a moment when I just became so frustrated and so not being able to see what success, not being able to see what victory for children might actually look like that in a moment of weakness, I was interested in just walking away and taking what, in reflection, feels more like the you know, the cowardly way out.

Speaker 2: 6:46

Um, you know, but I think one of the things that allows leaders to be effective is they surround themselves with people who are you know, stronger than they are in the moments when the leader is not strong, and fortunately, I have people who were strong enough in my moment of weakness that they put me back on the path, and so I submit to you that there are plenty of examples of like that along my journey, where I was not yet the leader that my students needed me to be, and it was really through the coaching and the support and the cajoling of folks that I had the privilege of being surrounded with, that I was able to persevere and move beyond that and ultimately to be effective.

Speaker 1: 7:30

So that, right there, just tells me everything I need to know about you is that you identified in a good way that you weren't the leader that your students needed you to be. But you identified that and, instead of giving in, you continue to push through and improve yourself. And we've all had those moments of weaknesses. I remember in the army, and if anyone's listening to this, I'm sure your brother too, when he was in the marine corps, had these thoughts. Like I'm done, I I quit, I throw it in the towel.

Speaker 1: 7:58

But having people around you and I call them accountability trees, people who are just deeply rooted, unwilling to listen to your excuses but also provide you shade and tough times, and you have to have those people in your corner because life is going to get a vote. We say in the military, the enemy always gets a vote, no matter how well the plan was, um that you thought was planned out, when you hit execution button it's going to change, and there's a quote by Kyle that I wrote down is there is no doubt in my mind that there are many ways to be a winner, but there's really only one way to be a loser, and that is to fail and to not look beyond that failure and when you hit that moment like a low point, you identified it and then you continued to move forward, and that's a mark of a true transformational servant leader.

Speaker 2: 8:53

No, I appreciate what you say about accountability trees. I've never heard that concept, but I really, really appreciate that and especially the way you described it. The people who are unwilling to put up with um, who I'm being in the moment and instead who are standing for the greatness that they see within me, even though that's not what I'm currently expressing, and I I suspect you know when I think about education. I think every child fails at some point, like I've yet to meet anyone who has lived a life of perfection that every child is going to stumble and fall at some point. And the real test of the education system is how do we respond to that? You know, when the child stumbles, do we see that as an amazing opportunity for their greatness to be made manifest, for them to really grow and learn and for their aspirations to, for the first time, see the full brightness of their capacity? Or, as a school system?

Speaker 2: 9:51

When children stumble, do we take it upon ourselves to point fingers and cast aspersions, say, look, I told you, little AJ really didn't want to learn. I told you that he really doesn't have it within him and we should probably just find a way to get him out of here. That's a real differentiating factor. Our school system is going to be places where children learning, grow through and because of adversity and tribulation, or are they places where, if children stumble, there aren't going to be adults, there's not going to be a sufficient safety net to pick them back up? And so this idea of having accountability trees, that they, they provide that stability. I really enjoy that idea, yeah.

Speaker 1: 10:35

There's a concept that I've had throughout my military career and it's called a failure quote. So essentially you have a total number of failures that you're allowed to have kind of in a day.

Speaker 1: 10:48

And I love that kind of idea of when you're going in through school and I'm thinking of my daughter right now because she's such an analytical person there's always steps to everything and she has to do it the right way.

Speaker 1: 11:01

And if she doesn't do it the right way the first way, then she just sees it as a failure, this insurmountable object that can never be moved because that moment in time she's failed. And that is what you just said is very, very, very, very important and that's hard to do to do a mindset shift within young children, that these are their informative years and I've always said this before is that our thoughts shape our beliefs, our beliefs shape our actions and our action defines our legacy over time. You're in that amazing space in a young child's life of where they are shaping their beliefs, their core values, their principles that are going to guide them to be a productive and successful adult. And learning to teach and cope with failure is challenging. So I'm curious from your standpoint as a subject matter expert in the education field how have you done that and how is the school system doing that or failing to do that?

Speaker 2: 12:01

I was visiting a school earlier this week and one of the things that the students said is that here at this school, we believe the school is adult practice and so every time we mess up, our teachers see that as an amazing opportunity for us to practice being adults and celebrated. As you know, we're held accountable for whatever mess we made. You can be certain we're gonna have to clean that mess up. We're gonna be responsible for repairing whatever harm we created. But that that's because that's what's expected of adults, not because it's some type of punishment, but because fixing the things that you broke is what adults do.

Speaker 2: 12:44

This is is adults' practice, and the teachers in our building aren't going to look down on us because we made a mistake. They're going to be like all right, it's learning time. It's about time. We've been waiting for a learning opportunity this whole day and that celebration of students making mistakes. That doesn't happen by accident. That's a cultural phenomenon. The building leader for that particular school, nathan, he's pretty adamant that this is the only acceptable response out of the adults in that building.

Speaker 2: 13:17

That is cultural leadership that he has imposed in that school, and that's really the difference maker. Either you have leaders who see these moments of stumble as an opportunity for growth. As often said in the church, a setback is a setup for a comeback. Like either we're going to see it as that, or we're going to punish children for imperfection, which just doesn't make any sense I'm writing that down.

Speaker 1: 13:50

Could you say that one more time?

Speaker 2: 13:53

I said, a setback is a setup for a comeback yeah, I, I, I love that.

Speaker 1: 13:59

I've never heard that before.

Speaker 1: 14:00

But there's another. Another concept, that that is to leaders, regardless of where you are, is that we have responsibilities, and I think, as students, as teachers, as a soldier, as a father, as a husband, we all have responsibilities, the duties and titles that kind of come along with that label that defines us in that season of life. But when we fail to live up to those responsibilities, then we have to be held accountable and I truly believe, like now in today's society, that's where we're failing. We're failing to hold people accountable and because of it they're not learning, and what they are learning, I think, is developing a weaker mindset and, at the end of the day, a less resilient person, because failure is inevitable. Everyone's going to fail. I think what David Ramsey has a quote that and I'm not going to say it verbatim, but all of these people that we see at the top of the mountain, which you don't know, is that that was incremental failure, that they continued to stack up until they got to the top of the mountain, and when you realize that, that becomes powerful.

Speaker 2: 15:08

So, adult practice, I love that Well this is one of the things that I work a lot at with schools.

Speaker 2: 15:17

I've got a group of high schools I'm working with right now that comes to mind where one of the things that I'm doing is helping them deploy student-led restorative practices, and so the basic concept here is that when you know little AJ and little Joshua get into it and you know we're behaving the way we're not supposed to be behaving, instead of us going to the assistant principal's office and the assistant principal figuring out what is a suspension that needs to be handed out, instead we go to a group of our peers who've been specifically trained and they lead us through a process that they've been trained to lead.

Speaker 2: 15:53

That has the two of us examine what is the harm that we've created, both for each other and for ourselves, but also what's the harm that we've created for our learning environment, for the larger community of learners, because this happened in the middle of a school. It was probably disruptive, but that's not even the most debilitating harm. So the most debilitating harm for the fact that we were pushing and shoving and hitting or whatever is there are other children in the school who maybe they're wondering is this a safe place for me? Am I going to get pushed and shoved and am I going to get hit next? And so now, instead of thinking about the stuff that I'm here to learn and being joyful about my studies, I've spent a little bit of energy on that. A little bit of energy looking over my shoulder watching my six, trying to figure out.

Speaker 1: 16:39

You know if I'm going to be the next person.

Speaker 2: 16:42

That is a a harm you know the little AJ and little Joshua created and part of this student-led restorative practices work is we have to be accountable for that harm and part of being accountable for it is I've got to do the work to repair the harm. I've got to come up with a plan for what is the harm that I've created and how will I go about repairing that in the school and how will I go about repairing that in the school? The challenge is that having children not repair the harm that they've created does not teach accountability. It doesn't teach them to have to step forward and address the mess that they caused. I think it's a fundamental failure of so many of our schools that we take a retributive approach to discipline where the operational concept is how do we meet out the appropriate punishment? The problem is a lot of our kids sitting home for five days just means I get to level up my fortnight character and play some Call of Duty. It doesn't mean I'm going to be sitting home thinking about what is the responsibility I should be taking, but instead forcing those students to really confront that that, as long as they're willing to take responsibility, forcing them to confront that their choices did create harm for themselves, for others and for their school, and that they're going to have to be responsible for coming up with a plan to repair that harm and that that plan is going to be acceptable to the group of students who they're working with through this process. And then they're actually going to have to do the work and they're going to be on a very specific timeline because they're going to develop smart goals. For here's exactly the steps I'm going to take and here's exactly the time by when I will take these steps to repair the harm that I've created. Like this approach to discipline, where the focus rather than on how do we meet out punishment, but rather the focus in on how do we meet out accountability, to me is a critical thing that's missing in a whole lot of places.

Speaker 2: 18:38

The challenge is that all too often, even when we do take an approach like this, instead of it being student led, it'll be adult led. Often, even when we do take an approach like this, instead of it being student-led, it'll be adult-led. But then the challenge with that is we've replaced a lot of the opportunity for learning and growth, a lot of the opportunity for discernment with direction, instead of having students figure out what is the harm I've created and how I'll repair it, adults show up and offer advice and insights on what the students should do. But the challenge is, you know, some I learned from my brother actually from his time in officer training in the Marine Corps is that advice from above is indistinguishable from a command, and so trying to offer students advice for how to repair the harm actually robs them of creativity and thoughtfulness and being accountable, because now they're just going to implement whatever advice the adult gave them because they're just oh well, that's what they're telling me to do, and so that's what I'm going to do.

Speaker 2: 19:33

But it doesn't actually cause me to have to sit and think through what are the repercussions of my actions and what am I going to have to do to repair the harm that I've created. And so this idea of using these moments of poor judgment as a learning opportunity and forcing a scenario where the students have an opportunity to actually be accountable for their behavior and repair what they've harmed to me that's an important part of the type of education that I want for children and that I think our nation needs. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 20:07

All right, team, let's take a quick break from this podcast and I want to personally invite you to our private Facebook community that I call Purposeful Accountable Leaders, or PALS, and PALS is a community dedicated to inspiring and developing servant leaders by sharing transformational stories and skills Exactly what tells the leadership is all about. My goal is to build a community of like-minded leaders that can share lessons learned, ask questions and celebrate wins when it happens. And my mission in life is clear I will end toxic leadership by sharing transformational stories and skills, and you will find countless transformational leaders in this group, many of them I have had the honor to serve with in the military. If you want to find a community that can help you grow both personally and professionally, we would love to have you. You can simply search Purposeful Accountable Leaders on Facebook or click the Leadership Resources tab in the show notes to join. I am looking forward to seeing you guys and continuing to grow together on our leadership journey.

Speaker 1: 21:09

Back to the podcast. I think that is critical. Two things that you said in there, too, that I love is you mentioned SMART goals so specific, measurable, I believe, achievable, realistic and time-based, and I always add another one to that SMART shared is, I think, once you come up with that goal, share it with someone. And another one that you talked about that we do in the military is really reflecting um, or an AAR after action, review of, and that that's the key. It's silencing your mind, taking taking a tactical pause, observing your surroundings and then pursuing with purpose Once you've reflected on on how, what, what went wrong and how, how can you become better. And it's universal. So I love that you're teaching that and that's that's exactly it.

Speaker 2: 22:00

The problem is purely suspension, where just you know, get out of the building, we'll see you in five days, is not an off your action report. It doesn't force that tactical evaluation of what did I do that caused losing and how do we lose less going forward Instead, often what it is is just reloading. Ok, well, I got five days to sit around and stew and when I get back, you know Joshua is really going to get it.

Speaker 2: 22:27

Yeah that is it. That isn't creating a context in which folks are actually learning from whatever the experience of the moment was, and just creating a context where they're more likely to come back and do more of the same thing that landed them in the situation to begin with.

Speaker 1: 22:44

Yeah, that's powerful brother. So what I would love is because everyone that comes on here has that spark, that moment that they've identified. Hey, this is the turning point in my life. I'm going to turn this pain into purpose. And when was that for you?

Speaker 2: 23:04

You know the second you asked the question.

Speaker 2: 23:05

The first thing that popped in my mind was seventh grade.

Speaker 2: 23:14

That popped in my mind was seventh grade and the foster home that I happened to be in that year was in the middle of a little rural town in the middle of Missouri, but it was not a place that was friendly to folks who looked like me.

Speaker 2: 23:23

Folks for the most part were openly hostile, but it was clear that they hadn't seen a whole lot of folks who didn't look like their families, and so I was certainly an aberration. There were definitely no other children of color in the school or in any of the schools that we played against any of our athletic teams. I was very, very much isolated in that regard, and there were some young men at the school who made it clear that they had family members who were in the Klan and that they did not appreciate me being in their town and in their school, and they went to a physical altercation which, because there were a group of them and just me, I lost quite quickly. And there were a series of experiences like that where, just because of the color of my skin that I was attacked, in some of those cases physically, in many cases verbally, and I absolutely, absolutely hated not only the experience but many of the people who I felt like were treating me incredibly unfairly.

Speaker 2: 24:36

But at the exact same time, there was one particular student who happened to be the girlfriend of one of the young men who attacked me, and he got suspended for the rest of the semester for his role in orchestrating the attack. But she then hated me, absolutely hated me, and blamed me for being the person who caused her boyfriend to no longer be at school and that it was somehow my fault that he got in trouble. And that it was somehow my fault that he got in trouble. And I asked my foster mother what to do about this because I didn't know what to do. I've never had a situation like this. She said, well, you're just going to have to kill her with kindness. I was like I don't know what that means, but that sounds really dumb. But I said, okay, well, I'll try it out.

Speaker 2: 25:35

And so each day I'd go to school and I I'd say, I'd wave at her and say, hi, that's what she's doing and she just gives evil, evil look and say something hateful and walk away. And the next day I'd probably be kind some more and I get the evil look. And every day I'd go home I try to be nice to her, like, well, you just got to kill her kindness again tomorrow. And after a few months it got to the point where something just clicked, something happened and we wound up being really, really good friends and we'd sit together at lunch and we'd talk and we just really came to connect. Well, the following semester her boyfriend comes back to the school and his plan is to immediately come and deal with me because, it's still.

Speaker 2: 26:14

They don't want somebody who looks like me, you know, in their school and she stands in front of me. She's like you're, you're gonna leave him alone and you're gonna let him finish up this year at school and you're gonna, you know, finish up and you're gonna be over there, but you're never gonna touch him again. And she told him that's the way it was going to be and he couldn't believe his ears. He turned around and never messed with me again.

Speaker 2: 26:36

I have not thought about her in probably a decade or two, but when you ask the question, what was something pivotal in my journey, particularly around education?

Speaker 2: 26:50

For some reason, that moment came flooding back.

Speaker 2: 26:53

Seriously, I can't even think how long it's been since I've thought of this story, but that, inside of some of the most despicable and intentionally harmful hate that I've ever experienced in my life being at the center of hate crime for no other reason than because of the color of my skin that even in that moment, the kindness won out in a relationship in a way that wound up being a protective factor for me.

Speaker 2: 27:22

Obviously, it wasn't calculated for that purpose, but even though I still harbored a lot of anger and hatred and it was probably a number of years before I trusted or would have anything to do with white people after that. But I never stopped being moved by the impact of my repeated deployment of kindness, even in the face of hatred, the transformative impact it had in a relationship and the protective effect that that relationship had for me for the remainder of that year and, unfortunately, after that year I was promptly removed. That was obviously an inappropriate placement, an inappropriate place for me to be, but that particular lesson resonates so much that that's the first thing that popped in my mind when you asked.

Speaker 1: 28:12

Man's such a a powerful story and, first of all, you know, I'm sorry that you had to go through that to me that just that blows my mind. You know, I've been raised in rural west virginia. I've never, never, raised to see, you know, race is a divider never, never, knew about that, you know, really, until I grew up, unfortunately, and was more exposed to the world. You know, and I credit my father in the way that I was raised, because he's such a, he's such a good man, someone that I I generally want to to be like an emulate as I continue to get older.

Speaker 1: 28:49

But being able to turn that deep pain into to purposes, it's powerful and, and I can understand having that kind of of of hate, uh, at least, you know, in Afghanistan it's kind of looking at people who, you know, just shot at you and then you have to put on a smile and talk to them, uh, but killing them with kindness. And I think that's what separated me from a lot of my peers in Afghanistan, to the point where other Afghan partners wouldn't want to work with some of my peers because I sat down with them, I was intentional with them and I and I tried to assimilate as much as I possibly could because I'm in your country. You're not in my country, and I had that kind of mindset. You reminded me of a quote from Martin Luther King Jr the ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort where he stands at times of challenges and controversy, and that story just popped in my head.

Speaker 1: 29:47

that quote's a absolutely.

Speaker 2: 29:51

I've always enjoyed that one. Uh, by king. Yeah, this idea of I'm in someone else's country, you know they're not bide. You know for this you know particular place it should clarify at that particular time. I'm sure it's not like this anymore and certainly hope not.

Speaker 2: 30:08

But you know folks would talk about, you know the clan, the way people talk about a slightly you know disreputable rotary club or something of that nature, like it wasn't something that was considered dishonorable to be part of. Well, you know those are just good old boys, you know they're just doing what they do, that type of thing. But it's such a radically different place, certainly unlike any other placement, foster placement I'd ever had. But this idea of kind of being a stranger in a very strange land and trying to figure out how do I still live out this value of kindness and humanity even in the face of that, I don't at all equate my experience with yours, but I definitely can imagine how that would be a really challenging, challenging thing to do in a real, a real test of your particular character and and who you were trying to be, even in a literally in your context, in a war zone yeah, I still, man.

Speaker 1: 31:07

that's a, that's a powerful story and it kind of leads me, I think, into a great question is what leadership lessons have you taken from your past that you're now transferring and applying to your current leadership?

Speaker 2: 31:21

roles One of the things that I try to adhere to. I don't know how successful it is, I definitely teach it. So I hope that I'm, I hope I'm living it. I hope I'm out here living it. I guess some of my team members who listen to your podcast will find out what they think about it. But something I definitely preach about is this idea of parallel process that whatever the leader is doing, that it's reasonable to the followers, We'll be taking cue from that. And so if I want folks to march to the left, I should probably march off to the left. If I want people to march to the right, I should probably march to the right. But marching to the left and telling people to go right probably just ain't going to work out Whatever behaviors that I want to see in the world around me. My first access to leadership that causes that is by demonstrating that in my own behavior, Simply put, leading by example. But the way that I describe it in my trainings is parallel process that whatever the leader is doing, you should reasonably expect that the followers will silently be taking their cues from that.

Speaker 2: 32:31

In the education context, the way that most commonly comes up is tell school boards whatever it is that you want folks in the school system to be focused on. During our school board meetings that are usually open to the public, we've got to make sure that we're spending the bulk of our time focused on the things that we say matter most. If we say ABC matters the most, but we spend all of our time in these public meetings on X, Y and Z, then what people will take from that is X, Y and Z. What matters most and this is a fundamental failure of leadership and school boards is that we'll spend all of our time talking about the colors of the football uniforms, and should we have tacos on Tuesday or Thursday? And should we have this book or that book, and should this person get the pencil contract, and who's going to get the toilet paper contract? And did Ms Johnson get a job? And did Mr Jackson get a job?

Speaker 2: 33:22

But the purpose of a school system is to educate children. What are we going to talk about? Have we actually accomplished the function of children educating? What are we going to talk about? Is little AJ better able to solve problems and collaborate and think critically? Is little Joshua better able to read, write and do math? What do we have in that conversation, but that if we don't spend preponderance of our time actually focusing on our students' learning, that the message that we send is that that's not what matters most, and folks in the school system will parallel that. They will follow our leadership as school board members, and if we don't make the main thing the main thing, then neither will they. The phenomenon of parallel process will lead them to attend to what we are attending to, not to what we tell them to attend to.

Speaker 1: 34:11

I had General Petraeus on a couple days ago and he really blew my mind with how he defined leadership. But it's kind of like setting a vision. Is you know, at a very high strategic level, how do you define your leadership? It's coming up with big ideas that you know, your vision of what you want to do, communicating that, replicating that within the organization and then continuously refining it, just kind of going through it.

Speaker 1: 34:39

And as you were talking, you reminded me of one of the rules of leadership that I've identified as the rule rule of mirrors, and it's aligning our actions and then modeling the way for others with our deeds and our words. And I've had a boss tell me you know deeds, not words. You can say all the right things, but if you're not following through with the right actions and they're not aligned with the standards that you said, the values that you placed, then no one else is going to replicate that, because your organization, your students, the teachers, whoever is in the school, is literally just a mirror image of the culture that you're setting at the top as a school board member. So that's beautifully said. So I'd love to kind of go on where you currently are right now. You know, on your journey, and I know you just recently released a book, I think it was called Great on their Behalf. What inspired you to write?

Speaker 2: 35:42

that you know one. A bunch of people said we'd like to have access to your ideas without having to put up with talking to you. So can you please write them down? We need to get a hold of those things and I had to call you about it. I can say that a more than reasonable request, because there's a lot of days I don't want to fool with me either. So I understand that. So that's definitely one thing is just trying to make it accessible to folks on their terms when it's convenient for them.

Speaker 2: 36:20

But then my kind of selfish aspiration in this is to we've got about 14,000 school districts across the country and that means we've got about 14,000 school boards and from my team's observation is we watch school boards constantly from all across the country and we code them.

Speaker 2: 36:34

You know we have a coding instrument where we actually analyze the meetings to try to identify what percentage of the board's time was focused on children actually learning and that which matters most, versus what percentage of the board's time was focused on all the other things, you know, all the other kind of adult matters and adult preferences and adult desires and adult interest versus how much of the time was focused on student outcomes and what's become incredibly apparent to us is, across the 14,000 school districts nationwide, there's an epidemic of a focus on adult inputs to the exclusion of a focus on student outcomes.

Speaker 2: 37:08

We're not focused on our children learning, we're focused on all the stuff that adults are doing. You can't ignore the stuff that adults are doing, but at some point you do in fact have the conversation. Is the stuff that adults are doing actually creating the results that we want in the lives of our children? And that conversation is simply lacking. And so the second reason that I cite for the writing of the book is to help accelerate the transition of school boards away from being adult input focused to being student outcomes focused, towards away from focus on all the things that adults are doing and toward the primary lens for the work of school boards being what is it that our students know and are able to do? How do we know that they've grown in that area and how are we responding to what we know?

Speaker 1: 37:55

Could you walk me through the book and maybe what is one piece of advice that could be potentially universal to anyone in their leadership journey?

Speaker 2: 38:08

Well, so, interestingly enough, the bulk of the book focuses on a continuous improvement cycle that school boards can engage in to really drive this focus on improving student outcomes. But, to your point, it's not horribly specific to school boards. So the five steps in this continuous improvement cycle are first, get your mindset focused. What is the actual hill that we are here to climb? What is the duty that we are here to accomplish? Is it about student outcomes or isn't it? And so the first step is to get a focused mindset. The second step is, in the context of a focused mindset, is to then clarify the priorities. What are the specific SMART goals that we are here to accomplish? Write them down, make them plain. Don't have it be ambiguous. Don't have anybody question. What does winning look like? What is the exact measure of whether we were successful at the task or we were not successful at the task? The second step is clarify the priorities. You have to write them down and make them plain. The third step is you have to monitor the progress. Are we actually getting closer to the top of this hill or are we not? What are the things that we've said we're trying to accomplish, and how exactly are we measuring whether we're getting closer to them or further away from them. So the third step is you got to measure progress. You've got to constantly be looking at are we actually getting closer, are we getting further away? And what pivots are we making based on what that data is telling us?

Speaker 2: 39:32

The fourth step is then align the resources. Once we have a sense of whether we're getting closer to the top of the hill or further from the top of the hill, then whatever other resources we have, we need to figure out how are we going to deploy those in a way that honors what the information is telling us about where we are relative to the objective. And so the third is all about alignment of resources, that they're actually aligned with accomplishment of the priorities. And then the fifth one is just communicating the results.

Speaker 2: 39:59

It's not helpful to the team if the team doesn't know exactly where we're at, what we're doing, what's worked, what hasn't worked, what we're going to pivot to do next and how we're realigning the resources to accomplish that. If we're not actively and repetitively communicating that, then folks don't know what to do and how they can play a role in the greatness of our children. And so those are the five steps in the continuous improvement cycle I put in the book for school boards. Again, it's to focus, mindset, clarify the priorities, monitor progress, align resources and then communicate the results, and then just keeping that cycle over and over again until we get to the top of the hill, until we've actually improved outcomes for our students. But again to your point, there's nothing particularly unique to school systems. These are basic practices that I suspect are going to play well in almost any environment where performance matters.

Speaker 1: 40:55

All right team. Let's take a quick break from this episode and I want to share a leadership resource with you, and that is the Resiliency-Based Leadership Program. Rblp's vision is to create a worldwide community of practice committed to building and leading resilient teams. So why do you need to build and lead a resilient team? Resilient teams are the key to individual and organizational growth, regardless of being in the military or in the civilian workforce. Building collective teams allows for exponential growth and the team's ability to overcome adversity, adapt and, most importantly, grow. And then bottom line up front. Resilient teams are just stronger together. And here's a fact 99% of the people who take that course recommend it to others, and I'm one of them. I just completed my certification and I highly recommend this. And the great news is it's most likely free to you, and if you're in the military, it is 100% free to you. And if you wanna learn more, you can look in the show notes for this episode and find the link and use the discount code JMCMILLION, and that is also in the show notes. Back to the episode. Any organization, any organization and even personal in your life, if you follow those five steps, you're going to see growth that is powerful.

Speaker 1: 42:18

I go back to something you said just a little bit ago is that people wanted you to write the book so they didn't have to talk to you. I think it's an absolute honor and a privilege to talk to you. You have a smooth voice and you're directly to the point. I don't know, I don't see that. And there was another thing that you said to um, selfish admiration, kind of watching all these different school boards like over 14,000. The first thing that my mom went to. It's not selfish. It's selfless because you're trying to make a world a better place, you're trying to bring light into this world, and that is a selfless act. Another example of a true servant leader. So thank you. The next question I would love is this isn't your first book that you've written and, as a part of, you also wrote I think One Leadership was part of that, I think and you're getting ready to write another book or be a part of. Is it called Rogue School Board Members Handbook.

Speaker 2: 43:17

Yeah, so the Rogue Board Members Handbook is actually already written, but I released Great on their Behalf first, and now I'll go back and do some revisions to the Rogue School Board Members Handbook. But where Great on their behalf is really how do we function as a unit? How do we be great as a team, as a school?

Speaker 1: 43:37

board as a unit.

Speaker 2: 43:39

The Rogue Board Members Handbook is much more tailored toward an individual board member who finds themselves somewhat at odds with the rest of their colleagues and trying to figure out how they can be impactful, even when they perhaps see the world differently than the rest of the people on their board. What are the options available to them to still make a difference in the lives of children, even if it's? A lot of these school boards are seven-member school boards, so what if six people see things one way and you see it differently? What are your options when you're still the rogue school board member? And then there is a large collection of chapters put together in a book called On Leadership that looked at leadership from a variety of perspectives, and I really enjoyed that because it was such a diversity of voices about what leadership looks like. But my particular contribution to the book was leadership from the perspective of K-12 institutions.

Speaker 1: 44:39

I really, really want to dig into that book and I find it fascinating is that it's a multifaceted book on leadership, because leadership is not just universal to one set. I view leadership as inspiring purpose, direction and motivation. If I can do that provide purpose, direction and motivation then I'm going to inspire you to get results and aligning my values and modeling the way. But it's not universal just to me. That's my definition of leadership that was forged through the military. That's why I love having conversations, especially with people, selfishly, outside of the military, because I love hearing other people's perspectives on what has made them successful. Because I'll be honest with you, aj, civilian life is fascinating to me.

Speaker 2: 45:25

I guess all I've ever known is the military. I know my brother still. He's been out of the Corps for two years. He was a colonel. He spent the previous 20 years. I know my brother still, even though he's been out of the Corps for two years. You know, he's a colonel. He spent, you know, the previous 20 years. He still feels like a little bit of a fish out of water some days.

Speaker 1: 45:38

Yeah, that's funny. So the next question I'd love to take it to is some of the challenges that I see right now within school boards, and I'm curious on what your perspective is. So I I was really thinking about this today because I have, you know, a five-year-old and a nine-year-old, and the three things that keep me up at night about schools is security. And you know, first, first and foremost and I always put myself in the mindset is like if something were to happen at my child's school, you know how, how would I react to that? First was like I would just run in if I could, but I know that I wouldn't probably have the time to do that. Um, second is is the cultural changes that was going and taking place right now, and like the speed of which the social media and the attention span that it's draining from the kids, I think, is it's a unique time to be alive, especially with chat, gpt and like all these things that I wish I would have had secretively.

Speaker 1: 46:45

And then the final one is is, I think, hiring talent Cause if you can't align the resources you know what you were saying in one of the your, your top five then it doesn't matter who you have. I think you have to have the right person for the job, because they may not be skilled and I learned this in the military they may not know what you're wanting them to do. But if you, if you can hire based on cultural fit, character, values, you can teach them to be exceptional. But you have to hire for, for culture first. And those are like the three big problem sets that I that kept running through my mind and I'm curious to get your perspective.

Speaker 2: 47:25

Yes, certainly these are challenges, vexing school systems and school system leaders across the country. You know, first on the safety thing, the school systems and school system leaders across the country. First, on the safety thing the number one job of the school system is to educate children, but if children aren't safe, education ain't going to happen, and so there are prerequisites that absolutely have to be in place. I describe it that way because I've certainly seen communities, and have served in supported communities that have dealt with real tragedy and have lost children to violence, and it can be really easy sometimes to make conversation about safety the only conversation that anybody wants to have, especially when you lose a child. That's a different kind of pain, that's a different kind of hurt, and so it becomes easy for that to be the center of everything. The challenge I'd submit to folks is you have to attend to safety. If people can't trust that their children are going to be well cared for, they're going to find another place for their children to be, and that is a sacred obligation of parents everywhere, and so you've got to address that. But I'd also say you've got to make sure that you still keep safety or keep education at the forefront. You have to have both. It can't be allowed to be an either, or we can't sacrifice educating children because we're trying to protect, like if we, you know, wrap them all in bubble wrap and, you know, toss them in a dark closet and closed and padlock the door, you'd probably keep them safe. I don't know they'd be learning much. So trying to figure out how do we balance that and making sure that we are making the main thing, the main thing are our children actually being educated at the same time that we are attending to. How are we creating as safe an environment as possible?

Speaker 2: 49:23

Now, when it comes to safety, a few things come to mind. One are we creating an environment where we have clarity and insight into what's going on with our students and when they're really suffering and when they're really struggling? And what we've seen is that students who are struggling in intense ways, the quicker that we can discern those things, the quicker that we can intervene and try to get them the support that they need and intervene and try to get them the support that they need. That's become a real burden that a lot of school systems have taken on and trying to figure out. How do we know that? What are the early warning signs? What are the ways that we'll know when students are struggling to the point where they may be considering harm to themselves or harm to others.

Speaker 2: 50:07

One of the things that you see a lot of folks lean into and I understand why they do and I think there's some necessity here. But I think it also probably gets more attention than the first one, which I think should get the most attention is how are our children actually doing? But the other thing that you hear folks talk a lot about with safety is hardening of facilities perfectly hardened, but our children are still struggling and suffering, and I don't know that any amount of hardening is going to carry the day, and so I think there's a reasonable amount that has to be done as a protective measure that is reasonable and appropriate to do. But I wouldn't let that overshadow our obligation to be really mindful about what is going on with our students. When do they need us and how do we have early warning, early indication that they need us? And then how are we having systems that are built to be responsive to that, so that those needs of our children don't go unaddressed, that they don't escape our attention? Those are some thoughts about what I see school systems doing nationwide. That seems to really be positioning them to create safe learning environments for all children.

Speaker 2: 51:18

Just as one side note, I don't think putting a gun in the hand of every single teacher is a good plan. I want people who are extraordinarily well trained in how to retain a firearm and how to use a firearm, and when to use and when not to use a firearm. Those are the folks that I would want to have a firearm in a school building, you know, but I don't want any and everybody who happens to be in that building to be armed. I don't believe that is the solution. Some folks do. I understand that. I just I think that's going to backfire on us pretty heavily.

Speaker 2: 51:49

Like that's, that's a. I would prefer a sworn officer, somebody who's actually had the appropriate training. The idea that a concealed carry permit is adequate firearms training, I think, is foolishness. To anybody who actually has a concealed carry permit, it knows how low of a bar that is relative to what sworn officers actually go through. So those are some thoughts about safety In terms of some of the technology challenges you're not wrong the issues around social media and the bullying that children are experiencing. That part of the challenge of that is that it is a world in which you and I are merely immigrants.

Speaker 2: 52:30

There are children digital natives who have grown up in this territory, and it is part of their social DNA, and you and I are just learning about it. After the fact, it is not a part of our social DNA yet. We come to it trying to understand it, and so there are things that I think it's always going to be hard for us not to miss, things that will always be hard for us to catch. That's part of what makes it such a difficult thing. So, for example, taking children's phones away from them. A lot of adults don't seem to understand why this seems to be a debilitatingly traumatizing event for children. It's like it's Like it's like if I took your car keys away. It's not like I took your legs away, but for a lot of kids you take their phone away, it is like you took an extension of their personality in their form of personal expression away, become a part of them in this kind of cyber cyborg. You know manner and so just recognizing that is a phenomenon that did not exist a couple of generations ago, and I think, as educationism, we're still trying to figure out. Okay, what does all this mean and how do we respond to it?

Speaker 2: 53:45

For my part, one of the things I've enjoyed about teaching student-led restorative practices is that having students lead a lot of these conversations.

Speaker 2: 53:53

When students engage in cyberbullying, having students be a critical part of leading those conversations.

Speaker 2: 54:01

I have learned so much by hearing their conversations, their discussions around what behavior is appropriate and inappropriate and what is the accountability systems that they're putting in place for their peers. I have learned so much from listening to those conversations because they're talking about stuff that I would never have thought to talk about, and so one thing that I would encourage the folks who are also struggling with that across the country is do what I've done on this Create a context in which you can actually listen to students talk through these issues, listen to students coach each other and counsel each other through these issues. I guarantee you're going to learn some stuff and some perspectives that probably would have never occurred to you, just like they would have never occurred to me, and that could be the basis of beginning to find solutions in your community. By hearing what some of these, some of our digital natives, by hearing, you know what are the solutions our students would come up with. And then you had a third topic. I completely missed it.

Speaker 1: 55:02

So hiring for talent, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 55:06

So just real quick on hiring. I have personally observed teachers take a multi-thousand dollar pay cut to get away from a incompetent and toxic principal and work environment. And so if there's any coaching I got for folks, step one honor our teachers. Give them a working environment where that is has a psychological safety in place, where they can actually be the strongest expression of their leadership in their classroom. When teachers have to simultaneously figure out how to be great for 30 kids in a classroom and deal with a toxic adult environment, that is the recipe for burnout.

Speaker 2: 55:46

Side of the toxicity that teachers have experienced throughout the course of the pandemic and kind of the horribleness of school from via zoom, which is just demonstrably not a quality experience either for students or for adults like that.

Speaker 2: 56:04

That is not the default that we want to ever be, but there's a lot of stress and a lot of challenges that's created for teachers.

Speaker 2: 56:12

But there's a lot of stress and a lot of challenge that that's created for teachers and I think the more we can do to kind of de-stress and detoxify the working conditions that teachers are operating under, I think the greater the chance that we'll be able to retain them, because I don't actually for me, the alarm bells aren't around hiring teachers.

Speaker 2: 56:32

For me, a lot of the alarm bells are around retaining teachers in the profession. There are just a lot of folks who are coming in, they're getting a taste and then they're going out. And if we're able to really retain those folks and create for them the winning conditions necessary to really experience the joy of effectively serving children uh, to really experience the joy of effectively serving children, like once you've, once you've got the taste of that and you've got an environment where you can reproduce, that, I don't see people running away from that. What I see people running away from is toxic work environments where they can't do what's on their heart to do for children, that they can't be of service in the ways that they really feel called to be of service, and in the context of that, folks are looking for someplace else to be.

Speaker 1: 57:15

You know, I never thought about that until you said it is that we're not setting up teachers culturally at the top for success. And I go back in time of thinking what were some of the best memories that I had of being an officer and a commander? It's when, when soldiers come back to me and tell me hey, you know, this word that you told me, or the help that you provided is led to this point, and just seeing growth, that's the best feeling that that I could ever have in the world.

Speaker 1: 57:48

And what is it like? A serotonin like spike. It's the leadership chemical that Simon Sinek talks about in the book. Leaders eat last that. That is why I love doing what I do and, yeah, I never thought about that. That's, that's amazing. Last question before we get to the final show segment, and I think this will really sum up the podcast well, is what is the most important lesson you've learned so far throughout your leadership career? That you want new education professionals to have.

Speaker 2: 58:21

It's probably a combination of the first and second items in the book of a focused mindset and clarifying the priorities If I had to kind of think of an amalgam of the two is just getting really clear about what we're here to accomplish, like. I just feel like so often time gets wasted, energy gets wasted, resources gets wasted because we haven't started by getting crystal clear about what is the hill we're here to conquer like. What is the exact point? How will we know what winning? How do we know what success can have? Can we get crystal clear about what it is it that we will sacrifice other things for so often?

Speaker 2: 59:06

I think one of the things that annoys a lot of folks in the education world is when it seems like we're just jumping from good idea to good idea to good idea yeah, some new shiny thing every day and I think, having an unshakable clarity about what matters most. One of the things that it gives us is the ability to say no to stuff that are okay ideas but they aren't laser focused on accomplishment and the. In fact, I suggest to folks that that is one of the ways that you know that you are fully dialed in, when you can easily say no to really good ideas, not because they're bad ideas, but because they're just not perfectly in alignment with where we're headed.

Speaker 1: 59:55

That's an amazing answer. Yeah, absolutely amazing answer. It's time for our final show segment that I like to call the killer bees. These are the same four questions that I ask every guest on the Tales of Leadership podcast Be brief, be brilliant, be present and be gone. Question one so what do you believe separates a good leader from an extraordinary leader? Humility. Question two what is one resource you could recommend to our listeners now?

Speaker 2: 1:00:28

New book out by Doug Lamov, the coach's guide to teaching. Just a brilliant series of insights into the neurological research around effective coaching. Just a really fascinating read.

Speaker 1: 1:00:46

I look forward to that one. So question three if you could go back in time and give AJ, younger AJ, a piece of advice, what would it be? Go faster, go harder. Oh, I love that one. That's a good answer. All right, so final question. So how can our listeners find you and how can they add value to your mission?

Speaker 2: 1:01:07

The thing that I most want, as I described earlier, is I really want to accelerate this transition from an adult inputs focused worldview the status quo approach to school board governance, to a student outcomes focus what students know and are able to do.

Speaker 2: 1:01:35

That is the whole reason the school system exists. And so, inside of that, two things One, if that's a conversation people are curious about, feel free to contact me. Just go to ajcrablecom A-J-C-R-A-B-I-L-Lcom and folks can contact me if they want to talk about that specifically. But also, if folks feel a real call on their life to be a part of accelerating that transition, the single biggest thing that I need right now is just more folks who are willing to step in the role of coach, who are willing to step in the role of coach, more folks who are willing to take on this work and help me reach the 14,000 school districts across school boards across the country. Right now I can measure the number of certified coaches that I have doing this work in the dozens, and really I need to be measuring that in the hundreds so that we can actually reach all of the students all across the country, regardless of which school board that they're served by.

Speaker 1: 1:02:38

Yeah, that's amazing and it's inspiring, aj, this has been an amazing podcast. Thank you for being intentional with me, especially like late, late at night. The world keeps going. We started filming this at nine o'clock, it's probably 10. I haven't even looked at the clock because I'm impressed.

Speaker 2: 1:02:54

It's been a great conversation.

Speaker 1: 1:02:55

I've loved it. Have a great night, brother. Thank you again. Be blessed. Thank you All. Right, team, it's time for our after action review.

Speaker 1: 1:03:05

That was a phenomenal episode with AJ and there's a lot of really good points that I could share with you. But what are the top three? The first one that I have is he mentioned kill her with kindness, right With his very powerful stories that he shared, and it brought me back to a quote in the Bible kind of goes through Matthew, chapter 5, 38 through 40. You have heard that it is said eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also, and if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. That is how you deal with evil people in life. And what did he do? He treated that individual with respect, with integrity, as we all wish to be treated, the golden rule and over time he won her over because he was his true, authentic self and he did not give in to hate. That is such a powerful story and that is a perfect example of how, instead of turning your pain into hate. He turned his pain into purpose and I truly believe that was his spark, that was his defining moment that set him on the path to light and not descending into darkness and chaos.

Speaker 1: 1:04:37

The next key takeaway that I have is parallel process is what he shared, and I equate that to the rule of mirrors. And what is the rule of mirrors? As a leader, it's aligning your actions and modeling the way and I say this all the time, it's probably one of the most popular things I say but words and deeds. You have to be able to say the right thing and then you have to be able to live the right thing. And it all comes down to when you're modeling the way for individuals on your team. What are the core values that you want to be replicated in your organization? What are the standards and remember, the standards is just the bare minimum to be successful in your organization that you want others and yourself to meet and are you communicating that effectively and are you living them effectively? Because if you say them but don't live them, the rule of mirrors applies. Your organization, the team around you, will emulate your behaviors and you have to understand that.

Speaker 1: 1:05:43

Then the final key takeaway was from his book, basically the five key sections in Great on their Behalf and I recommend anyone to go read that because it's a powerful leadership book from the perspective of a education professional. And step one is getting a focused mindset, understanding what mountain needs to be climbed and framing that right. You have to be able to frame it through the next step. Number two clarifying your priorities or smart goals. So specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, time-based and I add S to it share it. Number three you had to monitor the process. So you have a focused mindset, you set clear priorities that are smart and now you're monitoring the process.

Speaker 1: 1:06:28

Number four aligning your resources. Number five Number four aligning your resources. Number five communicating and, I think, gotten any value from today's podcast. Make sure that you subscribe, that you rate, that you share this podcast with someone who is just starting out on a leadership journey. It would mean the world to me, if you've listened to this podcast and you enjoyed it, that you give me a five-star rating. It really would help out by helping me extend my influence and help achieve my vision of positively affecting 1 million lives in the next 10 years by building better leaders, what I like to call a pal, a purposeful, accountable leader. Until next time. I'm your host, josh McMillian, saying every day is a gift. Don't waste yours Until next time.