Tales of Leadership
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Tales of Leadership
#109 Michael Brabner - From Infantry to Innovation
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LTC Michael “Brabs” Brabner currently serves as the MCoE Robotics Requirements Division Air Branch Chief within the Maneuver Capabilities Development Integration Directorate. Originally from Oak Harbor, WA, Brabs enlisted in the Washington Army National Guard in 2001 following the September 11th attacks. Over his 25-year career, Brabs spent 14 years as a light infantryman, holding various leadership roles ranging from Rifleman to Battalion S3. Some of his most notable positions include serving as a Platoon Leader with the 101st Airborne Division during the surge in Baghdad, Iraq, and as the Charlie Company Commander for the 25th Infantry Division's 2nd Battalion, 27th Infantry Regiment "The Wolfhounds" in RC-East Afghanistan. In 2014, Brabs transitioned to the Army's Acquisition Corps as a 51A Program Manager, where he has worked across the entire acquisition lifecycle, from JCIDS to demilitarization.
Connect with Michael Brabner:
-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-brabner-17b124253/
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Leadership Journey and Military Background
Speaker 1Finally , at a point in my life where we own our house , we've set conditions . Everything I've done , I've backward . I always have a backwards plan right . So the acquisition framework , I told you it's like find what you want to kill , neutralize , defeat or destroy and work back from that .
Speaker 1I've had that in my head since I enlisted December of 2001 . I always knew this day would come and I gave you kind of the cancer diagnosis analogy . I got seven months , six days and like it's really . I'm really starting to feel that now I'm also proud that we've been chopping wood . As I hand this guy on on her baton off , I feel confident that enough change is in motion now , like there's a bow wave of change that's built up , that I can take the uniform off and then stay active in this space .
Speaker 1In 2001 , when I enlisted , if you had told me like , hey , you're going to be doing robotic systems at the end of your career as an acquisition officer and an infantryman , I would have been like you're crazy , right , Can't see , you don't know what's coming .
Speaker 3You're listening to the Tells the Leadership podcast . This podcast is for leaders at any phase on their leadership journey to become a more purposeful and accountable leader what I like to call a pal . Join me on our journey together towards transformational leadership .
Speaker 2All right team . Welcome back to the Tales of Leadership podcast . I'm your host , Josh McMillian . A quick background on me I'm an active duty army officer . I've been in for 16 years . I'm an army leadership coach , a remote coaching company , McMillian leadership coaching , and I'm on a mission to continue to grow my leadership capability , both as a father , a servant leader , as a member of the DOD , but also to end toxic leadership . And I'm going to do that by two ways One , bringing on inspired leaders , like today with Lieutenant Colonel Michael Brabner , or sharing leadership lessons with you that I've went through to help you shorten the learning curve and hopefully prevent some of those mistakes that I went through in my past . But on today's episode I have the absolute honor and privilege of discussing leadership with Lieutenant Colonel Mike Brabner , and he's a good buddy of mine . So Mike Brabner serves as the Air Branch Chief in the Maneuver Capabilities Development Integration Directorate , Robotics Requirements Division . Say that three times fast .
Speaker 2Originally from Oak Harbor , Washington , Brab says his friends like to call him enlisted in the Washington Army National Guard in 2001 . Following the events of September 11th 2001 , he was inspired to join the military . Over his 25 year career , he served 14 years in an infantry role or capacities , including deployments as a platoon leader with the 101st Division during the Iraq surge and as a rifle company commander with the 25th Infantry Division Wolfhounds in Afghanistan acquisition core in 2014 . He has led projects across the acquisition life cycle , from J-SIDs to shaping future requirements and right now he's really driving in that space of robotics and that's a huge disruptive technology .
Speaker 2And to arm you with some tools , you can go to mcmillianleadershipcoachingcom . If you're listening to this episode right now , there is a blog that I summarized and distilled all the key facts , so you can go there and just listen to it . As always , I have additional resources on McMillian Leadership Coaching to include all the other podcasts , accompanied with their own blogs , and then all the different articles that I have written to continue to add tools to your toolkit . But without further ado , let's bring on Lieutenant Colonel Michael Brabner Brabs . Welcome to the Tales of Leadership podcast . Brother , how are you doing ?
Speaker 1I'm doing good , good morning .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's always fun to have that initial dialogue when we've probably been talking for like the last 15 minutes . Right , it's great to have you on the show and I think number one I want to say thank you for being a guest on the show . This is the first episode that I've got to film in the past six months . I had to take some hiatus off and I think it's awesome to have you on , because we both kind of do the same thing , but on different spectrums within the Army right now . But I'd love to get an opportunity just to have you , kind of like , quickly introduce yourself to the listeners .
Speaker 1Yeah , happy Saturday morning everyone . So Michael Brabner kind of go by Brabs for short currently serving as an officer in the United States Army , coming up on the 25-year mark . So I did 14 years operationally in the infantry , so all jobs within an infantry battalion , basically from a private rifleman up to a battalion S3 , after completing 26 months of rifle company command , which was kind of like what I consider to be my Superbowl ring in the army . And then after that I learned about this little thing called acquisition and I was mentored into that . I did the voluntary transfer process , kind of , you know , both knees into the breeze , jumped into it and done every job across the acquisition lifecycle . So everything from J-SIDs all the way up to D-MIL to include program management , jpo , armaments and ammunition , science and technology advisor to the two-star commanding general at the Fire Center of Excellence .
Speaker 1Right around the same time the Army Futures Command came out , both the number one and two cross-functional teams being there at Fort Sill then transitioned down to operational test command at Fort Hood . Uh was a test officer for almost four years on . Uh , so many big tests , uh planning . So I got to work that piece doing follow on test , initial operational test and evaluation , uh , working with DOT and E , some really cool programs . And then uh had the opportunity , uh , for my last job in the army , to do robotics and uh , at the time I didn't , I didn't put a lot of thought to it , I was kind of , uh , I was part of that bad culture . Um , you know where we had the RQ 11 , bravo or Charlie Raven .
Speaker 1Um , josh , you probably have the same experience . You know we didn't use it . We weren't good users of technology because those systems , those systems were looked at as expensive tools and if you had any mishaps or anything go wrong , your neck was on the block for the guillotine by your chain of command . You know , either financial investigation or property loss or a 15-6 . So we didn't use those tactical tools . So when I came into this job and was hired by a colonel now retired , rob Ryan , he said look , you're off the leash . You have no left and right limit , you have no SDZ . He goes . All I want you to do is just win , go . So I've been doing that for the last almost three years now . We've had some major accomplishments and I think we're going to dive into that . So thanks for having me on , josh .
Speaker 2Yeah , no , and you and I do share that . I remember being in Afghanistan and we never used the Ravens that we had One , because they were extremely difficult to use , because we had to get a raw set up in place and then the time that we would actually get the approval to use those things , we wouldn't need them anymore . So we would just like work around that technology . But I start off with I think a great place is if you can kind of define leadership in your terms . How , how does Brab see leadership ?
Speaker 1So I think , I really think leadership is an evolutionary process . You have to be introspective and you have to try and you have to be not afraid of failing .
Speaker 1Those are lessons I learned early on in life , mainly through the Boy Scouts of America , and I'm still really involved with that . My son is now in the troop , I'm on the committee , I'm a high adventure coordinator , I'm also assistant scout master . So , constantly putting yourself in new situations , you will find that you have to develop a Rolodex of tools . You have to be the Home Depot right . You can't just be the screwdriver or the hammer or the nail . You really have to be very eclectic in your approach and you gain new skills and attributes based on your character , your morals and then your tactical and practical application of leadership across a wide range of scenarios in your daily life .
Speaker 1So you know it takes leadership to be a father , you know , to a son and a daughter . It takes leadership to be a husband , you know to my wife . You have to build relationships and then you know , once I cross the threshold on my commute in in the morning , I'm building relationships . I'm using that time to make calls , listen to podcasts , make myself smarter , get my mind right before I cross the threshold into the SCIF at my office in Robotics Requirements Division and then work with my team , with my deputy , mr John Dudas , who's a rock star , probably one of the best capability developers in the United States Army . Brian Reed , who's my lead Cape Dev you know working annexes for me to the Joint Small UAS CDD and what are their needs and how to .
Speaker 1How can I exercise some humility to put put my wants , desires or what , what's priority in my life on pause , to prioritize what's , what's in their immediate target zone . You know what's in that ? 25 to 50 meter targets now that they're trying to focus on . So they can , they can chalk wood and help us accomplish our mission . So leadership's it's , it's evolutionary and every day you're going to face new challenges . And if you're not facing new challenges , you need to get out there and not be afraid to go to the shooting range and take some risk . And then when you get dialed in on that bullseye , then you , just you know you keep stinging that bullseye .
Speaker 2Then you build up that repertoire of success and application I I really wanted to to do like kind of a quick deep dive into those 11 points of leadership that you sent me last night , because I , I that's amazing and it's funny that I run a leadership podcast and I've never came across this topic yet . Yeah , when you first had that , like through the the boy scouts , how did they kind of go through those leadership skills with you ? Was it like a crawl , walk , run of like hey , here's the 11 tenets , uh , that we abide by when it comes to leadership development ? And then how did they instill that in you at a young age ?
Speaker 1it's the , it's the be no do model right . So when you come in , um , I don't know um , you know where your sons are in life . This was the model that I followed . So United Cub Scouts . But when I got to Boy Scouts , you come in and you're part of a patrol and I didn't realize it at the time . But the boy leaders and the troop although you know , from my patrol leader to the quartermaster , the chaplain , the librarian , the secretary , all the way up to senior patrol leader they had all been trained , they'd all been trained in those leadership 11 points of leadership at national youth training camps . In YLT Our scoutmasters were all wood badge trained . So that's kind of like the premier executive leadership course . And so there's models , there's layers , just like the sedimentary layers . You know the Grand Canyon and you build , you build on that right , you create a mountain of a mountain or a library of leadership potential and everybody's working on it and then you're working on it together . So you know , you get to the teaming aspect .
Speaker 1So as I got older and I was put in leadership positions , I had to learn my style and a lot of that was emulating those that I saw who were successful . So , growing up in a naval community , constantly being around . You know Top Gun graduates . You know guys that fly at the . You know speed . You know faster than the speed of sound mock whatever with their pants on fire . I learned a lot of leadership attributes and I wasn't always , you know , kind of the loud giant . I am my son's like that now . You know he's very quiet , he's calculative , he listens a lot . So my younger years were very formational in that I had to learn the skill of active listening .
Speaker 1And then , as I got older and you get put in leadership positions , you have to make a decision . Kind of goes back to the old ranger school adage like what are you going to do , pl , but you have to make decisions . And that's when it's go time . And that's when you have to say you know , hey , what kind of leadership style or tactic am I going to apply ? Is it going to be transactional ? In combat , you're the commander , you're the platoon leader , you're the squad leader . You have to make a decision , you have to direct . You know , am I going to be
Defining Leadership as an Evolutionary Process
Speaker 1a coach ?
Speaker 2in my job now .
Speaker 1I'm more of a you know kind of a servant democratic visionary in what I do . I've never been laissez-faire . There's times when you can be laissez-faire , you know , like when you're in front of your company in the morning and you can just tell they're just beat down after a week of training and you just don't really feel like doing an eight mile run , you know . And so you could kind of be a little more laissez-faire and , you know , yell zonk and release them and the morale you know release them and the morale .
Speaker 1You know , you've heard the word zonk man . It's like it's oh yeah , I've got a good story on that one . It is , it's a shot of adrenaline . But but back to the 11 , 11 points of leadership . It was , you know , getting and giving information , understanding group needs , characters or characteristics , um , knowing and using the resources of the group . I think that's a big one .
Speaker 1I learned that . I learned that in the national guard early on when I was enlisted . Um , you know , I had a , had a , had a team leader who was a nuclear physicist at the nuclear plant in um , central Washington and um , he's , he's like , hey , I just want to be , I want to be a team leader , I want to be an E5 , you know that's . This is where I love coming and working . And then my real job is really hard . I mean , he's a nuclear physicist , right , working on reactors . He's like I come to do the army , for you know the camaraderie , the uh , the teamwork , um , and just , you know being around friends and just working towards a common goal . You know national defense or Homeland security . You know when there's a tornado or hurricane or a mass disaster like Hurricane Helena .
Speaker 1So that part of like my early introduction to being a soldier and then commissioning and being an officer in the , you know , the Florida Army National Guard , really opened my eyes to all kinds of leadership and all kinds of bad leadership too .
Speaker 1We've all had toxic leaders where you're like I wouldn't follow that guy , I wouldn't , I wouldn't follow that guy into combat . Sometimes you , sometimes you do right . I was watching band of brothers with my son last night and he's like that captain Sobel guy is kind of a jerk and I was like , yes , I worked for a few of those , you know , but you learn to um , it may , it may feel bad , it may not be a good experience while you're in those , in those roles or positions . But you know the men , the mission and me , right , you , you find a way . And then when , when you're in a leadership role , you're like I , I don't want to be viewed that way , I don't want that to be my legacy . So it says cumulative effects that just kind of grow and build with you within your heart and soul over the course of your life and your career .
Speaker 2I think that that's a very powerful piece of wisdom . Right there is that in bad leaders you have probably even more profound wisdom that you can gain from versus good leaders . Like good leaders it's easy to emulate because it's good behavior . Like good leaders , it's easy to emulate because it's good behavior . Bad leaders it's hard to find the things that they're doing well and then to isolate those and what you want to replicate as a leader yourself . Because you talked about that at the beginning . I think we all go through that like emulation phase of like , where we're kind of like a mockingbird in a way , until we kind of find our stride . But bad leader is the most important thing that I found out and that's the blessing and the curse I think of being in the military is you have really great leaders and I think they outweigh the bad . But when you have bad leaders , I mean they're bad , like super bad , like borderline , like toxic , and it changes just the whole , the whole organization . But how do we not replicate those behaviors ? And then using those is like a burning desire , almost , that I am never going to do that , because I know what it feels like being on the end of it .
Speaker 2Another thing that I love that you said , and what's one of the tenets of the 11 principles is understanding the needs and the tools of your team . I think that's critical too , and I think that's one thing that most people are missing nowadays is like getting a full survey of your team and what strengths everyone possesses uniquely , and then how can we harness that collectively to go do this hard task , this disruptive thing ? And if you can learn how to do that , I really think that's what sets you apart from other people . Like within the requirements realm in the big army right now , it's like number one . You got like a deep passion for it , which you have to have . You have to care for it , and then you have to learn how to harness your team towards that vision , and that's awesome .
Speaker 1What a lot of people kind of forget but they always have to acknowledge and come back to is in the army any service branch really you could die and others could die that you're in charge of .
Speaker 1So that puts an extra level of stress and ownership and accountability on leadership . You know , if I was just you know going into work when I was at Picatinny Arsenal I'm not discounting or discrediting the civilian workforce here it's like you're probably not going to die in the daily execution of your duties and responsibilities . You know , unless you know you're handling explosives or doing other things and I use Picatinny as a perfect example because there's some wizards up there that do some amazing stuff with armaments and ammunition and explosives and other things . They call it the home of lethality for a reason . But you know you're going into a job , it's a fun job , you're probably not going to die and people in your workforce probably aren't going to die . But you know you're training up at NTC and JRTC or JPMRC and know , you're going to the two-way petting zoo , yeah , so you always have that .
Speaker 1You're always carrying that cross , you're always shouldering that burden , and it gets pretty heavy at times too and it crushes a lot of people . And then those that rise up to the challenge I think they , I think they experience an exponential level of spiritual and personal growth because you know , if you're in a leadership position , you are held to a much higher standard . Yeah , I think .
Speaker 2I had a very like , a very impactful lesson that I learned when I just took over my platoon in Afghanistan . It was probably like a week before and before that time , like I was the night battle captain , so I was pushing , you know , sigacs and reports and like just monitoring , making sure the battalion was staying afloat . One of the hardest things for me at that point is like I wanted to go be the platoon leader to get recognition , get awards , go get in firefights , go to Ranger Regiment . Like I was super gung gun ho , like that's what I wanted to do , that's why I joined the infantry , like I want to go do bad things to bad people . And then I went , uh , to one of my platoon's memorials for sergeant rodriguez and that's where I got to meet my platoon for the first time .
Speaker 2Like we're in theater , you know , you only see those things in like movies .
Speaker 2But like just the emotional , like response from the platoon like grown men , like steely-eyed killers that are doing bad things to bad people , just like breaking down .
Speaker 2And then I sit there and I like ponder myself of like how selfish I was at the time to like kind of go in with an agenda and an ego .
Speaker 2What leader does this platoon need at that time and then adapt to that environment . And then that set me on a path of kind of a humble leadership within a way of always being humility at like at my core , because I know what a bad day looks like and this isn't a bad day , and that always goes back to my motto is every day is a gift . I don't want to waste mine because I know what a bad day looks like and this isn't a bad day , and that always goes back to my motto is every day is a gift . I don't want to waste mine because I know what a bad day looks like . Dude , I love that . That's straight like fire Brabs . So I would like to like shift it over to what drove you to join the military , because you were in the National Guard first and you spent how long when you get ready to retire , like cumulative total of service .
Speaker 1That'll be over 25 years total service . That's awesome , brother . Yeah , it's . I always knew I was going to go into the military , believe it or not .
Speaker 1I thought when I was young , you know , I told you I grew up in a you know the son of a Naval aviator , so it was always around the jet jockeys , right ? So delusions of grandeur . Sometimes life has a way of telling you where you need to go versus where you want to go . So , as I grew to be like six foot eight , and then I wasn't blessed with my father's perfect vision laughing right now as I wear glasses I wasn't going to be sitting in the cockpit of a F-14 , tomcat or an F-18 or , you know , super Hornet . You know , doing that , I'm like hell , I pass out on roller coasters , right . So when I , when I started doing that , they were like , yeah , you're , you're too tall , but now , you know , being 42 , 42 , I was like I would fly a , you know a c17 or a c130 , like all day long , right , because I got some friends that do that and they have great lives . But , um , you evolve over time .
Speaker 1So I was in college , at washington state university , woke up , you know , uh , the morning of , uh , september 11th my mom called me and she's like turn on your tv now . I was like what's wrong and turn it on . You know , and you see what's going on in New York City . And I'd never been to New York City but I think it just hit a lot of Americans in the fields and I went in with two of my best friends in college at the time and we all enlisted and we're standing there talking to our recruiter and you know they went to be 88 mics , no-transcript .
Speaker 1And he's like what'd you do ? And I was like well , you remember how you told me like when I graduated I had to go to college and that was that was non-negotiable and and that you weren't going to pay for it . And he goes yep . And I remember I told you , I've been telling you , I told you that for your entire adolescence I was like well , I found a way to kind of pay for it , aside from working three jobs . I joined the army . And he said a few colorful words and then he hung up on me and then he called me back like an hour later and he's like I'm just happy you didn't join the Air Force . I think we can deal with this . I love that yeah . So that's how I came in and I joined the Washington Army National Guard , enlisted .
Speaker 2I stayed in school .
Speaker 1Then I was in the chow hall one day A senior ROTC cadet came up . They were like , hey , are you in the Washington Army National Guard ? Are you 11 Bravo ? I was like , yeah , you want to do ROTC ? I was like , nah , I hate officers , he goes , we'll pay you AtC . And I was like , nah , I hate officers , and you know he goes , we'll pay you . And at the time I was really poor , right , and I was like how much ? And he's like I think stipend then was like 150 bucks or something and I was like that was a significant jump in my pocketbook , right . So
From National Guard to Active Duty Experience
Speaker 1I did that and you know , when I graduated I commissioned into the Florida Army National Guard . I was recruited down there by Major Haas , who is now the Adjutant General of Florida , and went down there and went in with my hand raised .
Speaker 1I volunteered for everything . I went to every school he'd send me to . I worked on battalion staff . I was a platoon leader , executive officer , worked for the S4 . I was a transition officer . I , as that infantry battalion , transitioned to be a cavalry squadron . So I learned , you know , mto equipment . I learned property book and I was put in charge of some big things for a platoon leader , second lieutenant and then a first lieutenant .
Speaker 1In my time in the 4th Army National Guard . You know took my platoon overseas to do an exchange in Folkestone , england , with the Royal Irish Ranger Regiment . Oh , that sounds awesome . It was really cool . And as a first Lieutenant I was like man .
Speaker 1The army like gives you a lot of opportunity to do some cool stuff . You know managing and driving convoys in excess of a hundred vehicles across the battalion to go respond to Hurricane Katrina , hurricane Rita you know how that has devastated the Gulf Coast . So I really got to do the soldier citizen mission and be a servant leader to the community . That's what I really liked about the National Guard is you get . You know , knowing and using the resources of the group . You know I could have a sheriff's deputy who you know was on the Escambia County SWAT team . I could have an electrician . I could have a plumber , who you know . I was on the Escambia County SWAT team . I could have an electrician . I could have a plumber . Um , you know , I could have a school teacher as my company commander . And all the skillsets they brought um from their their civilian careers into the military made it a really fun organization to be a part of .
Speaker 1And then in 2007 , you know , every day I logged into HRC St Louis at the time before they moved to Knox , and you know , they had this limited call to active duty one day and I applied to it and I was one of 11 National Guard infantry officers that was picked up to come on active duty and I did that in 2007 . So that's when I started my active time .
Speaker 1You know , at the time I was stationed in Panama City Beach , florida , working active duty , special work , um , for my , for my battalion , for you know , then , major hollis , and uh , me and theresa , my wife , we just we made that jump and we came on active duty and uh , we were really blessed with some really good assignments at the 101st where I did my uh combat tour , uh in baghdad during the surge , and then uh you , doing rifle company command and uh , third brigade , uh , charlie , company two , two , seven , the Wolfhounds , uh out in Hawaii , so getting paid to you know surf , the big waves at the North shore and um have some of the best , best experiences in life . I said earlier that was my Super Bowl ring , trained with them for 12 months and then deployed for 12 months to Afghanistan , to what was one of the most austere mountainous fighting regions in RC East Kunar province and solved some really hard problems and do those things Carry skedcos that your friends are in , draped with an american flag , you know , being picked up in the dark of night by a , a pj helicopter , um , um it . It brings everything full circle . So , and you know the rest is just kind of writing on the wall um not discounting everything in those 25 years , but active duty has been , it's been fun and it's it's .
Speaker 1I see that I see the end now , and when I took this job from rob ryan . Um , people are like , oh , you know , a lot of people just go to , uh , the seededs or you know maneuver center of excellence , to kind of just kind of wither away and die . And I was like no , I kind of looked at like a cancer diagnosis . Um , I was like I'm going to get every drop of juice for the squeeze I can uh in this job .
Speaker 1So you know when I , when I moved here to fort ben , juice for the squeeze I can in this job . So you know , when I , when I moved here to Fort Benning for the fifth time in my career , I took a deep breath and , on July 1st 2022 , hit the ground running with small UAS . Didn't know much about it my own experience in robotics was what I didn't do with the RQ 11 , bravo , the Raven and you know , in Baghdad or Afghanistan and came in but took all those lessons learned . You know , just went through the Rolodex of vignettes combat vignettes , training vignettes said , hey , if I had these systems in Iraq or Afghanistan , how would I have used them ? You know , if , if , if my , if my platoon had had something as simple as a soldier born sensor to fly , you know , up up hills , check IV lines , um , you know rat lines .
Speaker 1The Taliban were using the come in from Pakistan and fight us . You know , would , would my , uh , would my company medic , you know , doc , uh , uh , joseph Allman , would he still be alive , you know , if he had had that tool ? And so every day I go into the office with my team like I always have that in the back of my mind . It's like how can we make these systems better ? How can we do the hard work , chop the wood to build the fire , to be agents of change within the army , which we all know ? Change in the army is it's tectonic , it's a glacial process , right , it's very slow to shift . It's tectonic , it's a glacial process , right , it's very slow to shift . How can you be an agent of change , a disruptor , and leave the Army , as you know , sunset here in seven months , five days , leave the Army better than it was when I joined in December of 2001 .
Speaker 2I don't think there's anyone that is more qualified and has a deeper passion than the position that you're in right now , than you , and I love that mental concept of like a cancer diagnosis . I've never heard of that before , but I love that and I think you're spot on . Most people go to requirements and they look at it as like a curse , and I think you and I kind of share that in a way of where I moved to Fort Polk after M-Triple-C and everyone was like , oh , I'm so sorry . I ended up extending to do two commands there and I had some of the best times with my family and like professionally leading a rifle company , an HHC company . It is what you make of it .
Speaker 2And if you go into those types of situations where most people like , oh , this is going to be horrible , it's going to be horrible because you've already set your mindset to that .
Speaker 2But if you go in , I'm going to be an agent of change and I'm going to be as disruptive as possible in a positive way , so the next person that comes in can have all the obstacles removed and then they can just move forward and try to make as much progress as possible , and that's one reason that I really deeply respect you is that you're willing to put that hard work in , but you do it in a way that is inspiring to everyone around you .
Speaker 2So , yeah , this is incredibly difficult work but everyone especially because I got to meet your team they're , they're to do it and that's a rare person that can inspire people to go chase hard things but be happy while you're doing it , and I think it's just that charisma and that passion that you share from your experience . But I want to back up because you shared something with me last night and I would be remiss if we don't talk about this your experience in ranger school . Walk me through that . Cause I know it was easy , but like cumulatively , like at the end of that , um , what did you earn ?
Ranger School and Leadership Lessons
Speaker 2Cause I want to make sure people hear this because it's incredible .
Speaker 1Yeah , it's . Uh , I mean , from the time you're , you know you're a young 11 Bang Bang or an infantry officer everybody knows you have to go through a crucible . Right ? Ranger school is not a leadership school , it's a small unit tactics school and you're not going there to earn the tab . That's not the whole point of it . Right , it's a patch . You can go down to Commandos or Ranger Joe's and buy it . You know , if you so want to do , to do that . It's more than that . When I was platoon leader in IOBC , before I went to Ranger school , we had a . We had a 75th Ranger Regiment legend . I won't say his name , but he came out and he was talking to our , talking to platoon , and you know everybody was humping his leg .
Speaker 1You know , like , how can I pass ranger school ? What can I do this ?
Speaker 1you know which phase is the hardest and you know I could tell it was irritating him and I was just kind of I was just being an active listener in the back . You know , I'm six foot eight , so I'm either standing in the front or standing back and uh , I was like I don't want to bug this man you . This guy's a legend and he's probably really annoyed with these kind of conversations . And he goes let me stop you there , guys or lieutenants . He goes . Let me just stop you right there . He goes you're either a ranger or you're not . You just go to the school to validate . And I was like that hit me , I was like that was on point . So when I got my chance , ranger school , you know you had all those years of fear kind of beat into you .
Speaker 1It was institutionalized , right , you hadn't even been to the school yet , but in some ways you were . You were afraid of the unknown but you knew you had to have to have some intestinal fortitude and courage and be willing to show up . You know , at zero three in the morning , sit on your duffel bags in the parking lot and then I own your pts . And then when it when it was go time , it time , and I remember going into that that big circular pit next to the Malvesti obstacle course to do my pushups . And I've been practicing , I've been practicing hard . You know I had my dog . I cut the , I cut the cord on my dog tags and got it really short . So , um , you know , I got long arms . So when I did pushups , you know my nose was like going deep into that bark . I think my nose was like bleeding by the time I finished my 42 . And when I , you know the RI didn't count , so he was doing those mind games .
Speaker 1He didn't count your pushups . You're just there , you're just trying to do perfect , precise execution of that exercise . And when he said , get up , ranger , you're done , the minute I stood up , pop in the position of attention and walked out of that pit , going back to the end of the line getting ready for sit-ups , I was like I got this school .
Speaker 1I got this school in the bag I I had broken that threshold of fear . That had kind of been institutionalized like . This is just a school . You've done all this before , michael . You know you've been a senior patrol leader for a boy scout troop . You know leading them on a 75 mile backpacking trip from western washington at diablo lake , across the Cascades and in the Eastern Washington Lake .
Speaker 1Chelan , you've done all this before you carry heavy stuff . You know what servant leadership is . You know what the 11 points of leadership are . You're tactically proficient because I had all that experience as a , as a platoon leader , an XO , an S4 . I came in very prepared so I charged through that . I charged through that . A lot of it was hey , give me the two 40 , do the hardest stuff . Um , I went in at 280 pounds and I graduated 64 days later , on January 28th , my class . Um , at one 96, . That's a lot of weight to lose . So my body just like consumed itself .
Speaker 2But my mind you're six , eight too , so I want to make sure people can kind of like picture that I weigh 190 pounds right now and I'm six foot .
Speaker 1Yeah . So I came out as you , I started as Brabs and I came out as you know , josh . Um , that's a lot to lose , right , but I wasn't hungry , right . I don't think I got hungry until mountain , like we . You need to eat some calories , you know , looking over at my , I love the Bat Boys , the Ranger Battalion Boys . Like I helped them write all of their op orders . I did eight patrols , had eight goes . I think you know you can go check my green cards . I want to do that before I retire , by the way . Just go back and read what the NCOs that were my RIs , that walked the lanes , what they wrote about me . And at the end of the course I had one .
Speaker 1I had one minor minus and that was , uh , in mountain phase I was , uh , the two 40 gunner and we had a horrific , horrific movement . That night , I think everybody in leadership position got a no go . And uh , that night , in a patrol base , you know , they were like , like everybody in leadership position , get in here and I looked at my , uh , ammo bearer and my assistant gunner and I was like I was the first lieutenant . I was like , guys , do I need to go into the middle as the 240 gunner and their eyes were rolling in the back of their head . So I stupidly walked in the middle of the patrol base and the RI was like hey , everybody , that was a horrible movement , you're all getting minor minuses . And I raised my hand and I was like I'm the 240 gunner , he goes , you're still a leader . And I was like roger that I went up , you know , and signed my minor minus . I took it .
Speaker 1So when I got to the end in florida phase , we were on , you know , we were , we were on the , the trucks heading back and I'm sitting in the back . The whole platoons just zonked out because they're just there's physically and emotionally like dead at that point , right , they , they're all emaciated . It's like a like someone had just liberated a prisoner of war camp , right . And I'm sitting in the back , bright eyed and bushy tail , just looking back at the dust behind the deuce and a half as as we , as we head back to sixth RTB , and the RI sitting across from me . He's like so what'd you think of school ? You know , roster number , triple deuce Ranger Bradner . I was like .
Speaker 1I was like I'm going to kind of miss it , sergeant , he goes , you know he goes . You know you're going to be the officer honor graduate , right , and I was like no Sergeant , I didn't know that . And he goes . It's been an honor to you , know , to walk lanes with you . You know , see your platoon he goes . It's one of as I've ever had the luxury or honor to be a Ranger instructor in and I thought that was pretty cool and fast forward .
Speaker 1He ended up being one of my platoon sergeants in Afghanistan . Oh , wow , yeah . But long story short , standing there at Victory Pond graduating on December 28th , which just happened to be my Scoutmaster's birthday and I told you he was the 75th Ranger Regiment guy , that was the best present I could ever give to him was graduating from a school that he cherished , loves very deeply to this day and not only graduate on his birthday but be the Ralph Puckett Officer Honor Graduate . And man , I was so excited . I was like Ralph Puckett's a legend . So my class graduating class was the first class that he stopped coming out and personally presenting the award to the officer honor graduate .
Speaker 1So I was kind of bummed that I didn't get to meet him . And then I graduated , got in my car and my wife and I had to beat feet really fast to Fort Campbell and the birth of our daughter two weeks later and then say goodbye to them and go to Baghdad to join 175 Cab and 2nd Brigade . And long story short , a couple of years ago this would be late 2022 , one of my best friends , chuck Kogel , who did a lot of time in a range of reconnaissance company almost his entire career . He was getting ready to retire and his wife came up to me and was like you know , like the one thing he never got in his career was the order of St Maurice . I was like , are you serious ? Entire time in regiment and like he never , never got that and he goes . No , it kind of it , kind of member of the National Infantry Association . I'll do a write-up right now . Can you get me his DD-214 ? And I wrote him up , put him in for the award .
Speaker 1So when we did his retirement ceremony at the Ranger Memorial , his wife , joanne Cogle she's a councilwoman down in Columbus , georgia coordinated for Ralph Puckett to come out and we surprised Chuck , you know , colonel Puckett showed up , showed up , came out and , uh , he presented , he read the citation for , you know , chuck cogle , there at the ranger memorial , and I finally got to meet ralph puckett , so it was really cool and we sat down and had a long conversation and just , uh , well , you know , a wealth of wisdom kind of kind of man and , um , he shook , um , he shook our hands and he , uh , he goes . You know , I'm sorry I wasn't at your graduation Cause we sat there and talked and I was like I told him the story and he gave me , um , one of his challenge coins , one of his personalized uh medal of honor challenge coins . And now I got that paired up , you know , with my uh , with my plaque , and you know that's of all the things I've gotten across , 25 years of service , you know , to include my company colors . That's up there , um , and it just goes to show .
Speaker 1You know , at the time and the moment , you can't be , you can't be selfish . Other people have needs , other leaders have needs . They're on their own path in life , but eventually your paths will cross and it'll all come together . You just have to , you gotta have faith , you gotta stay the course , you gotta be a believer . Good things happen to good people and I was just very fortunate to be in those positions and it was a .
Speaker 1It was a really formative part of my career and I know it's it's just a school , but you know it holds it holds deeper meaning for me , Cause you you know , when you look at somebody that has one or doesn't , they either have it or they got a story right , yeah .
Speaker 2It's an instant barometer of like what type of person they are .
Speaker 1Yeah , you need to do it , and as a as a new platoon leader , you don't have the tactical experience . At the time you and I went through , that was in the midst of the global war on terrorism , right ? So how dare you say you don't need it or you're better than that ? Because are you better than your men that you're going to be leading ? You need to go through something .
Speaker 2I kind of think of it like this , like ranger school . Is it going to make you a better leader ? Possibly , right . Is it going to make you a harder individual ? Yes , because you can learn what your limits are and then how to lead people when they're at that limit . But one of the things that it is , it's the standard . It is the bare minimum standard to be a rifle infantry platoon leader and a company commander . If you want to do that , you have to mentally prepare yourself that you're going to have to go spend at a minimum 60 days , sometimes more than that , in this school and it's a marathon . It's not a sprint and it's it's mentally and physically challenging , but it is the minimum standard . We expect this of you if you want to be a leader in the infantry . Yeah , 100% .
Speaker 1And one thing I say to myself and even in my family right , we , my family , we all have our priorities at work and , uh , every day , kind of our , our motto and I take this to work too is , um , part of the Ranger Creed do more than your fair share of the task . Everybody does that . If everybody's chopping wood , you will have a bonfire to sit next to and life will be good . But if people are slacking and they're not pulling their weight , then life's not fair , life becomes harder . But if you're on a team a family unit is a team , you know and Robotics , requirements Division , air Branch , that is my team and I'm a part of it . So if my guys , john Dudas and Brian Reed , if they're looking at me and I'm not pulling my weight and I'm looking at them , they're not pulling their weight .
Speaker 1It goes back to that accountability piece and that's something very unique in the military that we , we will always have and carry with us . And I think that's why we are different when we go back into the civilian community , because we we look at mission success . We look to , we are inspired by having a vision . We want to be part of a transformational process . We want to be part of a democratic process . But we want to go places where there are people who are visionaries and are setting out to do the hard , the hard thing . You know , the hard right over the easy , wrong , that's .
Speaker 2You know we're cut from a different cloth when you transitioned out of the infantry into where we're at now as like an acquisition officer . Walk me , walk me through that . Um , how , how was that decision ? When did you do it ? How did you find out about it ?
Speaker 1So I was on the North shore surfing and uh , my acquisition mentor Chaz .
Speaker 2Bowser , I want a picture . Uh , six foot eight Brabs surfing in .
Speaker 1Hawaii . Hey , so I'm not a short boarder , right ? Short boarding isn't cool , man , they're reef huggers , right ? Long boards . Nothing shorter than 10 feet . A custom board . So you don't serve Taiwanese pop outs , you don't serve plastic , so a custom bowl on glass , glass single fin , big wave gun or long board . You know , um , I was out there on the north shore and I did a lot of thinking uh , pre and post afghanistan , up there on the north shore , with my you know who I didn't know at the time , one of my best friends to this day , chas bowser , and he's like hey , brabs , have you thought about acquisition ? What are you going to do after company command ? I was like you know what I really don't want to be a battalion S3 or battalion commander , like .
Speaker 1I really only joined the infantry to be a platoon leader . And then , you know , at the time I took the day I took the guide on , I got my 10 year letter . It said your service obligation is fulfilled . The day I took the guide on with my first sergeant , first sergeant Stattmuller John Stattmuller great guy . I could have walked away then and I'm glad I didn't . But I didn't really see myself doing anything in the infantry , or the army for that matter , at my 10 year mark of , you know , rifle company command . But I'm glad I did it . It was 26 months to some of the best months of my life with Charlie company , comanche company in Schofield barracks in Afghanistan , and I'm still friends with a lot of those guys today . Matt Starn , stephen McElroy , cw3 , eric Scarf , down flying Apaches at Fort Stewart I didn't know what acquisition was and Chaz , my mentor .
Speaker 1He told me he's like look man , he goes . You could be the best Ranger , you could be the best rifleman and you know you can kill bad guys , but he goes . If you go into acquisition and you work material development and you work on a weapon system , you work on a munition , you work on , you know now , a robotic small UAS system , he goes . You help create that system and field good material solutions to the warfighter , he goes you'll be like Kalashnikov , he goes you can kill a lot of bad guys and a lot of people don't look at acquisition that way . So you know , he taught me early on . He's like if you want to , if you want to solve a problem in material development , look at the combat scenario , look at what you want to neutralize , defeat or destroy and then backward engineer to the solution . Don't predetermine that solution , backwards engineer from the solution or the desired effect , the desired effect . So I was like wow , it really stuck with me .
Speaker 1So I came in acquisition and I'll be honest with you . I went to the acquisition basic course in Huntsville , alabama , and I really felt like I had betrayed my heart and soul . I was looking to my left and right . I was one of only two infantrymen no , three infantrymen in my little small group in that 2014 acquisition basic course . And then I got to my first assignment and it was a culture shock . I wasn't surrounded by meat eaters anymore . I was , you know , a lot of leaf eaters , but good leaf eaters . You know experts in their field , system engineers , quality assurance . And then I started making friends and I started reaching out to DevCom Armament Center and making friends with guys like Russ LaVbar , who helped us design the Audible lethal mod mission payload that we now have written into requirements . You know , I made friends with Michael George , a bunch of other people across the depth and breadth at Picatinny Arsenal and then I was kind of in it , right .
Speaker 1And then I was looking at like , okay , well , what do I want to do in acquisition ? I knew in the acquisition basic course that I did not want to be a CSL product manager . I knew from day one . I was like that's not who I am . I don't want that , I don't want that life , to quote varsity blues . So I just went out and started taking assignments and they were some of the least sexy assignments to acquisition officers and one of my hardest things against acquisition officers is a lot of times we can be selfish , we are seen as selfish for some of the things we are given the opportunity to do , like advanced civil schooling , training with industry .
Speaker 1You know , whether you're a 51 Alpha or 51 Charlie contractor , some acquisition officers , I think , lack intestinal fortitude and then some acquisition officers have egregious amounts of intestinal fortitude . You know , I think of . You know now Colonel Promotable Gibbs , who's PM swore you know that guy , that guy's a meat eater , he's going to go places , he's a , he's a , he's a change agent . And I , you know , I've had some acquisition officers that I'm like good Lord , you are smart , you have an MBA , you have all these degrees , but good Lord , you don't have a tactical ounce of knowledge like in your , in your meat computer between your ears . So you know , one of my downfalls as a leader is I'm extremely hard on people in terms of I expect you to chop wood and when I don't see that , you kind of lose my trust and faith and willingness for me to follow you . But I mean , good Lord , if you're a meat eater and you're willing to get after it . Uh , like Colonel Daniel Medallia .
Speaker 1But uh , pmuas , mr Ed Gosder and Kevin Luman , you know major Chris Simpkins up there that I work with a lot , or major Morgan Keffer at a PM swore work in shoulder born sensor Like they're meat eaters . They're , they're uh , they're contagious and they want to be part of that winning team . So , yeah , having done everything in the acquisition lifecycle , across the full model , all those jobs , you get to a point and you have to develop that depth and breadth and for me , it was doing the one thing that acquisition officers look down upon , but it's the one thing they all need , right , alpha and omega , but it's the one thing they all need , right , alpha and Omega . Everything begins with a requirement yeah , so I know you're going to be a future . You know CSL product manager program manager , who knows ?
Speaker 1you may be really high up in a salt before your career ends with with your tenacity and willingness to get after it . But I was like I really fell in love with requirements at Fort Sill learning under Gary Lemons and a requirements development directorate . Um , and I was like I really fell in love with requirements at Fort Sill learning under Gary Lemons and a requirements development directorate , and I was like this is where it began . So you call a product manager , the first thing they're going to say is what's the requirement , what are the thresholds ? And then they're going to go establish their acquisition performance baseline , they're going to develop their act strategy , but you have to be able to hand them a requirement .
Speaker 1And so I came into this job as an acquisition officer , a program manager , but with an operational love for the infantry , for maneuver , and not just maneuver . You know , sustainment , support , uh , intelligence , cyber , um , all the domains right . Um , I came into it with a love and a passion and said I'm going to make requirements , we're going to do requirements , and I think we are the best Cape Dev team in the United States Army right now and we're doing work at a joint level . So we've got the Air Force knocking on our door . We've got the Marine Corps , we have the Navy .
Speaker 2Now we have the .
Speaker 1Coast Guard knocking on our door saying , hey , will you share your requirements with us ? And I'm like it's that humility piece right ? I'm like absolutely 100% , give me your , give me your dot mil . It's coming to you hot . So you got to be part of something bigger than yourself or your team . So I think we're affecting change in that capacity and I think that's about all I have to say about RME acquisition .
Speaker 2I think it comes down like deeds not words . I always go back to this quote . When I was doing a lot of fire exercise from , he was in the unit of freezing . The guys were pretty tired . We've done several iterations at that point it's a final platoon that was going through theirs and they I mean lack of a better term and not being politically correct right , they sucked . It was a bad live fire . And me I've always had a big heart , right Like especially when I lead with people like I tend to be , unless there's life , limb or eyesight issues , right Like I tend to be a little bit more forgiving and I was like all right , we'll pick up tomorrow morning . And he looks at me as he does his final AR and he says deeds , not words , josh , and he walks away and that always has stuck with me and I think , like what you've talked through , like , and I agree with you , I've worked with Colonel Medallia Chris Simpkins . He took over my position as the SRR . I really wish I could have had a better rip with him , but I knew he's he was going to crush it . We're going to work together next to the Pentagon , so that'd be interesting to kind of work beside him .
Speaker 2But there's a there's two types of of acquisition officers and I personally believe this . I think that there are ones who get into the field because they're selfish and they know that it's going to set them up for success in the civilian world and that's their end state . And there are those , like you , that are selfless . They choose that position because they believe they could be a disruptive , change agent and actually benefit the warfighter , which I hate the term warfighter , I don't know why , it just doesn't stick well with me but we need more people like you that can marry experience with acumen , if that makes sense . Right , like you have tactical experience being a maneuver company commander , seek forth and destroying the enemy right . We need people that lined in that , especially nowadays with all the disruptive technology that's coming out , and I think this is a perfect place to kind of go into that , like how robotics is shaping the battlefield . If we're looking at , like the flot , the forward line of troops and future warfare , it's going to be like Terminator robots fighting robots , like I legitimately believe that . And we can see in like Ukraine right now , with the disruptive behavior of technology and the speed of war of which it is growing and iterating , I think it's kind of really changing the acquisition model from how requirements are generated before .
Speaker 2And I think a good as a Raven right , we , and I think a good as a raven right , we'll just use a raven as a model , a requirements generated for this system . It is then going through a three to five to sometimes a seven year material developmental solution . It is filled it and sustained for 20 years . That model is garbage . I for us at least , it cannot be used because Moore's Law right . But now it's even doubled . Technology is going to double , maybe in six months , maybe in three months because of the iteration that we're doing right now .
Speaker 2So how can we adapt requirements to iteratively change and continue to give capability to our warfighters ? So our sons and daughters and I know you and I share this because now you got me fired up is that they're the greatest assets that this country has . I want my son , if he joins the military , to have the best technology possible , so if he has to meet someone else on the battlefield he has that overwhelming , decisive power to come home and then also to strength through power . I really believe that , like , if we have the capability , it doesn't necessarily mean we need to use it , but when we do use it , it's going to work and it's going to be devastating . So I think this is a great place to talk about , like the , what you're currently doing right now in the robotics space .
Speaker 1Yeah . So when Rob Ryan hired me July 1st 2022
Transition to Acquisition and Robotics
Speaker 1, that's when I started this job at the time , all service branches were working on the joint small UAS capabilities development document and , coming in as a experienced acquisition officer , I knew what that meant . I saw the possibilities and , um , last night , preparing for this podcast , just really doing a , you know , introspective , deep dive on uh myself and just asking myself I don't like , hey , what does leadership mean to you ? Perhaps ? Um , doing , doing that , doing those rehearsals , right , so I didn't come on here and look like an ass clown . So , all the digital universe , think about your words . I said , hey , google , what is considered to be the most difficult leadership challenge ? And I'll read it to you right now . It said according to many leadership experts , managing significant change is often considered to be the most difficult leadership challenge , as it involves navigating resistance from employees , adapting to new situations and effectively communicating the change process to achieve positive outcomes . And I read that and I was like holy shit , that is the essence of what we've been doing the last two and a half years in Robotics Requirements Division and on the Air Branch team at a joint level across a variety of key stakeholders to include , you know the 75th Range Regiment , our Army Capability Managers for our formations , you know Infantry Reconnaissance Striker , abct . That's what we're doing here . We're going to be that change agent and it's been difficult at times .
Speaker 1But in the face of adversity , what do you do ? Face everything and rise right Fear . And we set out to do that . We did it with lethality because at the time a lot of people don't know this , but Maneuver Center of Excellence is not the proponent for UAS , it's Aviation Center of Excellence . So I had to go down to the UAS summit at Fort Novosel and I had to join their team . I had to bend the knee and kiss the ring right , to quote , you know kind of Lord of the Rings or the Rings of Power . No , that was a wrong pop culture reference , it's the other one . I'm drawing a blank right now . Where is it with ? Uh calise and the dragons .
Speaker 2That's , uh oh , game of thrones game of thrones .
Speaker 1Yeah , you got to bend the knee and kiss the ring right , otherwise you get scorched by the dragon . Um , I had to go down to fort novacell and team with you know , colonel nicholas ryan and his deputy , patrick robin , and , and now you know , colonel ruiz sanchez and tyler booth had a team with them and say , hey , you're our proponent , this is what we want to do , this is everything the Raven wasn't . This is everything our formations , maneuver formations want this system to be Build organic assets that the ground force commander , whether you're a squad leader , company commander , platoon leader , battalion commander can use when air goes black . You know you don't have fixed wing , you don't have rotor wing in that firefight . You don't have ISR platforms because clouds have rolled into , uh , into the Hindu Kush mountains of RCE East . You know what can I do ? How can I , how can I use a robotic system for robotic enabled maneuver to make contact with the enemy , maintain contact and then , you know , not only find them but fix them and destroy them .
Speaker 1And that's really the essence of what we're doing with the Joint SWAT CD and our family of systems is we are making what I think will be very good material solutions that the warfighter will want to use , and because we are change agents and it goes back to my comments about not only being an acquisition officer but doing the J-SITS process and writing requirements , writing good requirements and putting in their precedent , changing language . You know , when you talk about things in legal precedence , we just got the in 2023 , summer of 2023, . We got the joint SWAS CDD approved by Admiral Joyner , you know , leading the JROC . We just got long range reconnaissance , that annex to the Joint Swaz CDD approved by General George and it's now going up to Admiral Joyner at the JROC for approval . We put language in there that challenged the culture . You know , socrates always said the secret of change is to focus all your energy not on fighting the old , but building the new , and that's what we're doing . We're building , you know . We're making that new , new . As my friend James Hamblin at Army Special Operations Requirements Directorate says , we're making that new , new right . We're chopping wood and we put language in there that got us out of the status quo of the 2013 capabilities production document . That gave us the Raven . It gave us SRR Tronch 1 , 2013 , and we're sitting in 2025 , and that's still a document . So I'm in the process as soon as we get next gen short range reconnaissance written , we will take that out in the backyard like old yeller and we'll put a bullet in it . It's being put down . The 2017 capabilities production document for soldier born sensor . We are writing the next gen soldier born sensor annex to the joint SWAT CDD and we'll hold the other that one too and then we will have ownership at the maneuver center of excellence for group one and group two . That's huge .
Speaker 1And then all the modular mission capabilities , all the modular mission payload capabilities that come along with that EOIR sensing , comms , extension network relay , electronic electronic warfare plus and I'll just leave it there . There's a plus next to it for a reason , yeah , and last but not least , my favorite lethality . And you know you were there when we started doing audible on . You know we did our first audible drop December 5th 2022 . And I posted about this last night on LinkedIn . All the haters , all the haters . They were on your team , they were on my team at the Maneuver Center of Excellence . All the haters . And I'll just leave it at that , like eat crow , because we change things .
Speaker 2I will never forget . I had a senior leader in my organization . He was basically talking I think he had like a pathfinder event , a usa , something like that and he was like hey , and I think it was colonel ryan . At the same time , too , they went back and forth . They're like well , our soldiers don't need kinetic capability on group one drones . Who are you to say that ? Like right , like , look at what china is doing right now . They have embedded fpv pilots in their formation and they have also developed and invested billions of dollars . And then they kind of like frame it to make it a little bit more personal for us we do not have have any fully NDA compliant section eight for a out of the 2020 FPV systems .
Speaker 2Like , as a country , the U ? S does not have that . And why is that important ? Is that that is a huge combat multiplier for maneuver formations , because it allows you to find , fix and destroy exactly what you said . But then it enhances that kill chain , like the SBS , the SRR , mrr , lrr , layering those assets , so we have a disruptive advantage on the battlefield . So I can find you , I know where you are and then I'll choose how to kill you , in lack of a better term , because I have the tools at my disposal to best end you .
Speaker 1That's awesome . 100% , man , it's . It's like operational terms and graphics . Right , it's , it's your . So you take what you learn operationally , you take what you learn as a program manager from acquisition and you have a series of overlays .
Speaker 1And one of the things I always like to do in acquisition or an approach model is minimize the number of complex components , maximize the number of common components and that's at the core of what we're doing for the joint SWAS , cdd and family of systems is that modular mission payload , that modular modularity to be able to to use things across the hunter killer spectrum .
Speaker 1And that's why we've tested so well with with low altitude stock and strike , why we've entrenched ourselves with the aviation community . You know , brigadier general Kane Baker at future vertical lift and Colonel Nick Ryan and Colonel Luis Sanchez down at aviation center of excellence with what they're doing , you know , with with regard to launch defects . When you think about it , when you look at the sheer quantities , the basis of issue plan for a joint SWAS and I'm just going to talk about the Army it's a joint document . So when you get the Air Force , navy , marine Corps and Coast Guard , when they have these systems in mass , you will be able to concentrate that mass with what will be the largest Air Force per capita in the world . So everybody likes to talk about Russia , ukraine and China , but you take our war fighters and I hate that term , you know steely eyed killers .
Speaker 2I'll use that one .
Speaker 1When you take all those gals and girls out there , across the joint service branches and the army specifically , and you arm them with a small UAS that are highly capable , multi-tools flying in the sky , like if you fly we , uh , we fly , you die , you take that . I think it's on par with things . Uh , you know , revolution in military affairs , like the advent of a gunpowder , uh , nuclear , uh , nuclear capabilities , uh , the fear that brings um and what , how we , how we're seeing things unfold on the battlefield right now and thank God we're on the bench right . Everybody else watched us in the , everybody else watched us in the GWAT and they learned , they learned our hard lessons free . We're learning hard lessons for you right now , but we're not stupid . We're taking all that open and closed source intelligence , we are putting it into our emerging requirements documents and we will give our fighting force the best systems . And it goes back to that language , right , we've established precedent . Precedent was set with the long range reconnaissance annex . You know these systems shall be updated every 36 months or as needed , based on technology maturation . So it's kind of like the Abrams engineering change proposal model how they were able to climb the ladder in terms of capability with their system enhancement program efforts to go from an M1A1 set B1 to a set B3 , all those capabilities and we cannot have a requirement document that's over 10 plus years old with those really lazy acquisition lifecycle models that show like a shadow , going out to like 2050 . That dog doesn't hunt right . So a large portion of the accountability lies on your capability developers , your requirements writers . Everybody likes to say you know . The operational force likes to say acquisition officers are jacked up . You know , they don't know what we want . They don't know what we need . But acquisition officers will say what's the requirement , say I can only , I'm only chartered to build the threshold . So that's why we put that change language in our documents . So we establish a new precedent .
Speaker 1Going back to the Raven army , Senior leaders were like you and I . Both faced it . The Raven's too expensive . If you lose it , josh , you could be fired . You know you could face , you know , financial penalties . Soldiers didn't want to fly it because they didn't want to , you know , have their pay cut or , you know , be under 15 , six investigation because they weren't trained properly . And or they hit a crosswind and flew 30 miles into pakistan . You had to change that . So we put language in that in that document that said these systems will be ace compliant . You know everybody here is modular , open systems approach or architecture . We said these systems will be ace compliant and that's attritable , consumable , expendable it's .
Speaker 1It's a tool no different than any other tool we have on the battlefield . Like nobody bats an eye when uh you eye when a helicopter fires a hellfire . Nobody bats an eye when we shoot a tow or a javelin . Nobody bats an eye when you fire 90 rounds of 60 millimeter mortars in a firefight on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border . But everyone bats an eye when you try to fly a Raven to gain decision advantage over your enemy and something happens . It's like a safety on a weapon . It's a mechanical device that can and will fail and leaders have to dial back the accountability through risk mitigation , make sure their soldiers across the dot mil PFP spectrum , the T are trained to employ and use that tool spectrum . The T are trained to employ and use that tool .
Speaker 1Because my boss , dom Edwards , says this . I love it . He says what robots do are moderately interesting . Moderately interesting . It's like the stocking stuff or radio shack . You know a little quadcopter that took like a double A battery that you got on Christmas morning and it broke or the dog ate it within like 30 minutes , right , if you get it , and then you just push it off to the side . That's kind of the Raven mentality . That's what we did as an army for the last 25 years .
Speaker 1Now you have to say , the compelling piece of robotics are the effects that they give us and that's decision advantage the ability to make contact , maintain contact and then have modularity in your payloads to exercise a hunter , killer model , organically , not calling for someone else to come send it to you , because nine times out of 10 , you're probably not going to get it right , but organically have those solutions , those tools to employ on a battlefield . And going back to the gunpowder nuclear warfare , naval air power , air force , air power , air domination . I would not want to face an army or a joint force the UK , canada , united States , australia , new Zealand , the Five Eyes . I would not want to face a combined allied force that had mastered robotic enable maneuver . It will be the scariest thing out there and we know this for a fact based on what we're seeing in Ukraine and Russia and what we're watching China do . That's fact . It is . You go from how we fought in the infantry . It has not changed much in the last 200 years .
Speaker 1The robotic enable maneuver will be that leap forward . That'll be that next plateau that we ascend to and if we master it , if our leaders embrace it and our change agents and , more importantly , the most thing , the most important thing , that people forget the training piece .
Speaker 1you have to invest in training your operators , advancing and supporting changes in the force structure to have robotic and autonomous system formations . You know , you know HMI , you know what we're doing with tech brigades . We have leaders right now that are being change agents and change is coming and I'm glad to be a part of that , that change . But it's it's chopping wood're chopping wood to arm those acquisition professionals , our program managers , our contractors , to go out and get the best material solution , because we are going to regenerate our requirements in a way that arms them with the documents they need to go do the spar and the palm cycle and work with the Hill and the Pentagon to get the
Revolutionizing Military Robotics Requirements
Speaker 1needed appropriations and obligations of funds to execute these programs . It's a coalition of the willing and we've been building it for the last two and a half years . I will be extremely proud to see whoever takes the guide on for me as the air branch chief coming up here in the next seven months , five days , and continues to like to run , run with scissors .
Speaker 2Today's show sponsor comes from 10th mountain whiskey and spirit company . They are a philanthropic , award-winning craft distillery located in the heart of the Rocky mountains in Colorado . For being a listener of Tales of Leadership , you get 10% off on any order using the promo code PANDOCOMMANDO when you place an order at 10thwhiskeycom . Both of those are in the show notes so you'll be able to find them . 10th Mountain Whiskies and Spirit Company honors heroes and they craft a legacy . I've commanded two organizations in the 10th Mountain and both of which are very deeply impactful to me . This is a company that I stand behind , and if you're looking for a great bottle of bourbon , look no further at 10th Mountain Whiskey and Spirit Company . Back to the show . Yeah , I'll do everything in my power , too , to make sure they're successful . Even though I'm transitioning up to the building , I'm still going to try to keep my pulse on it , and I ? There's one thing that I think you , you hit the nail on the head that we have to begin to like change our mindsets around . It's risk tolerance and , with uas specifically and that's a broad category , right , I think , robotics specifically , like like ground , group one , group two , group three , all the way up . We need to change how we view those systems and that we have to become more risk tolerant . I think that's one of the hardest things that I've had to work with with engineers . They want to take all the risk out , 100% of the risk out . They want to take all the risk out , 100% of the risk out . And then we , as maneuver you know , background infantry guys we're okay with having a healthy level of risk because we will continue to mitigate it as we continue to move forward , but we don't necessarily allow risk to drive our decisions . We understand what they are and we'll make the best informed decisions at the time .
Speaker 2I think we're at this inverse point as a military , specifically because we have all this disruptive technology . The easy answer is well , we can't move as fast because we don't truly know it yet and because we don't know it , it's just too risky versus we need this . We need it now because we don't know what the next year , two years , three years , four years looks like . We need to begin to get this in our formations . We need to start organizing , we need to start training , we need to make sure they have the right material solutions , that we have the supply chains all the way down to the course material , where it's coming from , set . So if anything were to happen again and that's not our goal , we don't want it to happen but if it were to happen , then we will be in the position to be successful .
Speaker 2And I think that's going to be the next challenge , with a lot of like the senior leaders and one of you know , I see is that how do we change that culture of risk and acquisitions ? It's NASA and SpaceX . I think that's a perfect example , looking at it Like Elon Musk's way of managing risk and just making decisions on the fly of where NASA would never launch a rocket if there was any possibility that it would fail . Spacex is catching gigantic rockets with freaking sticks , like that's phenomenal and so simple at the same time . Uh , but yeah , I a hundred percent agree with you and I'd love to kind of get into um , the FPV annex that's getting ready to get released . When . When is that ? Cause I'm super pumped about it , and if you could walk me through FPV too , cause I know one thing about you is that you not only do the requirements , you also have your robotics fan , that you like to go drive around and fly this as a hobby , which is awesome .
Speaker 1So it's internationally known as first person view right . But we adopted USASOC's naming convention because we're capability developers , we're material developers and our new name for fpv is purpose built , a trittable system . So just in the name and not alone , you got purpose built . That applies to modular mission payloads like the common lethality integration kit . The devcom armament center is working to transition to colonel vince morris program manager for close combat systems , pmccs up there at Picatinny . So purpose-built , a treatable system .
Speaker 1It goes back to that language in the document of allowing leaders to not be afraid to use the system because the effects , the return on investment that you will achieve at the small unit , tactical level with that system , when augmented and hyper-enabled by other systems in the joint swaths family of systems , and then also groups three , four , five , our aviation brothers and sisters down at Nova cell , the systems that that they're developing and building out . You know , with future vertical lift cross-functional team , it's going to be , it's going to be a scalpel . And one of the most alluring things about purpose-built attributable systems is the low cost . Yeah , and then you know that's critical NBA compliance . And then lethality . You know you got folks like Brian Davis out there and cracking kinetics that are that are really they are crushing it .
Speaker 1They're change agents and I was having this discussion last night on LinkedIn . I was watching some folks go back and forth in a thread , just being really harsh on each other . Even Bob Sakaki says it a lot . It's going to take a coalition of the willing , as we stand up the industrial base and we empower them with these requirements , to push capability to drive capability development , development , not to push it to drive it . They're going to be the backbone of this entire effort . So you got a lot of people looking at the fpv space or the now the pbass space , and the wealth of opportunity and benefits , um , that are going to be shared by all from that system , and our warfighters want it too .
Speaker 1I've had a lot of army senior leaders over the last two and a half years that were staunch opponents to FPV . You know like , oh , we're not going to fight it like the Ukrainians are going to fight it . Like yeah , you're damn right , we're not going to fight it like the Ukrainians are going to fight it . We're going to fight it differently highly capable systems to apply precision effects at the point and position on the battlefield at a time and place of our choosing , not like the global war on terrorism , where we all had to ride IED alleys every day , a time and place of the enemy's choosing . Guess what ? We're flipping that paradigm the coin . The coin just got flipped right . So we're going to use these hyper-enabled robotic and autonomous systems to be used in a precision manner with very good effects , whether that's anti-personnel , anti-materiel on the battlefield , in conjunction with ISR modular mission payloads .
Speaker 1So February 4th or 11th I'd have to go look at the calendar we are entering into Army-wide staffing . We got the call last week that they're like hey , we want an FPV requirement . Okay , well , first off , it's called PBAS now . So you know , army , I need to make sure I start using . Hey , you will go buy an FPV . I gave him some FPVs that were loaned to me by a friend up in the Fort Liberty area and I said go out and learn this right now . I want you to start chopping wood , write this annex . And people are like why are you doing that ? You weren't told to do that . I was like yeah , but it's coming . There will come a time and a place when an army senior leader reaches down and says I want this now .
Speaker 1And if we had done that , we would have been 12 to 15 , 18 , almost 24 months behind the power curve . It costs the army $0 except time your most valuable resource to write requirements . And then when I can take that requirement and I can give it to Colonel Medallia , she's the happiest acquisition officer program manager in the world because we are doing our job . So , at every seated across the army , your capability developers need to be tased and motivated . It's that transactional leadership style , right ? That's . What it takes is you have to jolt , you have to jumpstart the engine and get everybody rowing and chopping wood , uh , to do this , and that's what we did with pbass . And we have a phenomenal , phenomenal requirement coming out prepared to go into staffing that is defendable both from a modeling and simulation , or so that or some math right , everything we do with regards to gaps is tied back to uh modeling and simulation . Well , I can tell you right now it's been verified and validated . It is going to be an integral part of our joint small uas cdd strategy and I can't wait to see what our operators do with it .
Speaker 1I was just out yesterday at the range watching , uh , some of the best fpv pilots in the army from the 75th Ranger Regiment building systems , flying systems , integrating systems on . You know , medium range reconnaissance material candidate solutions . Company PDW is out there with their C-100 , air dropping five inch FPVs with lethal mod mission payload tactical trainers that could then transition to tactical solutions , lethal mod mission payloads . So our men and women are out there doing it . But we just have to get the requirement document into Colonel Medallia's hands so she can do the mat dev piece and turn it into something real . And then as requirements writers we regenerate that requirement , we upgrade it based on technologically maturing solutions and enemy threat systems . So we outpace our enemies and we maintain that doctrinal three to one ratio . You hear us use 10X down here in R&D at the Maneuver Center of Excellence and MCD . We need to have that 10X capability .
Speaker 1But it all starts with requirements , and PBAS is one I'm very proud to have our name on and and give to our program managers and see what they do with it . And then , more so , what our steely eyed killers and use your least favorite word there what they , what they take the system and turn it into when those leaders get ahold of it and they say , hey , this thing's a treatable , consumable . Expendable . It gives me decision advantage , a time and place of my choosing . Consumable , expendable . It gives me decision advantage , time and place of my choosing . I can invest , I can train my operators , I can start formulating robotic and autonomous system experts , master trainers , 15 series , uas operators it'll really be looked at as master gunners .
Speaker 1Now , yeah , in the air ground , the toral , and then get out there on the battlefield and kick the shit out of our enemies . That's the driving force . So yeah , you get me pretty excited . Talking about FPV man , it's one near and dear to my heart because I know it is . Out of all the systems , it's one of the ones that warfighters want the most . Our innovation cells across the Army SOCOM , usasoc , jsoc they're doing this , they're leading the way .
Speaker 1But we have to get that requirement documented because if we don't do that , we don't follow acquisition law , policy and regulation and do the work , chop the wood . We can't do the other things . There is no easy button for this . There's no radio shack of drones . They have to be held accountable and the accountability lies in the threshold and objectives , in those documents that can and will change . You know , we build a threshold but eventually , as systems mature , those objectives become the new thresholds and you establish new objectives and you and you keep , you keep doing that it's . It's going to be cool to watch this evolve .
Speaker 1Uh , ms Kimberly Newton she's the director of integration at army AFC . She's looking at this now as a vignette . You know , a member of Elon Musk's uh uh transition team reached out to us and say , hey , how are you doing requirements ? And we showed them our playbook and they're like wow , this is , this is transformational . Um , you know , now with uh yeah , now with uh uh Pete Hegseth getting um uh confirmed , last night we got a new sec def . You know , you heard um in in all his words . He even heard uh , our new president , talking about robotic and autonomous systems .
Speaker 1I would love for them to get their hands on our operational view models at the macro and micro level . And then , hey , invest in us , believe in us , and then , more so , let our warfighters go out and use this tool . Train them to be scalpels on the battlefield at the two-way petting zoo and unleash the beast and then manage it , control it and influence , and then upgrade it . Them to be scalpels on the battlefield at the two-way petting zoo and unleash the beast and then manage it , control it and influence , and then upgrade it .
Speaker 2I think it kind of goes to um , something I've always used in my I call it triple h , the rule of head , heart hand . If , if I can explain it to you , um head , you could at least understand it does it create that emotional response and I think you got to actually go begin to do like a training and then , once you see it and you feel it , you have that intrinsic motivation , the ability to go do things . You're just going to go do them right . So I think , like getting in with the transition team now , explaining it to them , bringing them out so they can start seeing the users , it'll build that intrinsic motivation and it'll create that all shit moment , right , like , oh , we need to do this , because I can see all the naysayers right now is that it's going to cost too much , it's going to be too risky , it's too hard .
Speaker 2I had the honor and the privilege to go through a UMS course a little
Purpose-Built Attributable Systems (PBAS)
Speaker 2time ago . Never flown a drone other than like an SRR things that had a lot of autonomy , stacks on it , very easy to do , right , like they basically fly themselves . But in the FPV space a lot of it's like maxed visualization , meaning that you're pushing the drone to its peak performance and there's really not a whole lot of autonomy , necessarily in the current FPV space . So you have to be an expert pilot Two weeks long long , building the drones up front . So I can build a drone now with no experience and I learned that in 96 hours , which was arguably pretty easy . The soldering is the hardest part , but that's that , that's on the far end spectrum , right , like we're going to have vendors do that .
Speaker 2And then we had 96 hours of going through a training course of where we started and I'm telling , telling you like I'm not even lying I did a power loop 60 miles an hour down . I did not increase the throttle and it went straight into the ground kamikaze . But what blew me away is that the drone didn't break . The battery flew off , but I put it right back up and started flying again and it was fine . And then that's when I realized , as a very humble , josh , I'm the best drone pilot and builder in the world because I just made the robust drone in the world .
Speaker 2But but going to that standpoint is that , yeah , it is difficult , but if I can learn it with having no background at all in 96 hours and be able to fly through buildings and stairwells and stuff like that . Anyone can do it , because I am just a humble Appalachian from rural West Virginia and an infantryman by trade . Right Like I am not , I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and what you're doing now is going to be absolutely critical , and I love that . I appreciate it .
Speaker 1Yeah , one thing we've run into and , um , people that know me know I'm very articulate , sometimes verbose and graphic with my descriptions or metaphors and analogies , but , um , that's why I love you . Yeah , it kind of hit me when we were doing long range reconnaissance , um , and I was thinking back to the lessons learned with raven , right , do you know ?
Speaker 2how much .
Speaker 1Do you know how much a rifle platoon costs ? Think about that for a second . How much does a rifle platoon cost ? So don't think about it with your head and your heart . Think about it with analytics in terms of modeling and simulation , because everything's a war game . Right , you got to quantify it . Right , it's qualitative and it's very quantitative . War is about attrition . Let's just talk about soldiers group life insurance . I was watching a band of brothers last night and they were like hey , you know , make sure , before they were doing the drop , my son was like why does , why is the light red dad ? I was like because when it goes green , they're jumping out of that airplane . And a band of brothers , the scene before they're loading up to cross the English channel and do an airborne drop . You know , behind the lines in Normandy , they're like hey , everybody , make sure you go over and sign your soldiers group life insurance . You know , then it was $10,000 . So now we're getting to quantitative analytics . Right , right now , if you or me die , that's a $500,000 payout to our families , if you've done the smart thing and you're paying your SGLI every month , right , yep ? So a rifle platoon with the numbers you know 30 man platoon , $15 million .
Speaker 1So look back at Iraq and Afghanistan . How many times you lost a Raven ? You sent a platoon out to go look for it . So however much a Raven costs let's just say 256 K you're going to send $15 million just in terms of soldier group life insurance into a combat zone to look for a piece of equipment . It's stupid . And so when we were doing long range reconnaissance , we're like , well , you know what , what if it goes down ? You know what are we going to do . It's like who cares , you lose . You lose a vehicle in combat . You say you lose a map he in . You lose a vehicle in combat . Let's say you lose a MAPV in Afghanistan . You hit a deep buried HME IED . Not only do you lose that MAPV , you lose the crow weapon system , you lose the FPCV2 . You lose every piece of equipment to include the operators . It's a five-man vehicle , right Gunner , tc driver and two dismounts . You lose everybody in that vehicle .
Speaker 1Look at your return on investment with robotic and autonomous systems . So if I can fly a long range reconnaissance out or I can take an FPV and I can hit a high priority target , what's the cumulative effects of return on investment ? Everybody saw that Ukrainian FPV operator . I think he had something like 500 kills and they started to quantify the return on investment . That one man on the battlefield employing a PBAS system . What it added up to Like he was taking out SAM sites , he was taking out radars , he was taking out logistical supply trains , he was killing Russian soldiers . You start adding that up .
Speaker 1Who cares if the FPV costs with a full-up system costs $1,500 ? The return on investment from that soldier employing that tool on the battlefield at the two-way petting zoo grossly exceeds what you pay for it MSRP in terms of acquisition , like cost-scheduled performance cost specifically . So you have to look at robotics in that way and that's why we have a treatable , consumable , expendable in there . It's like hey , leaders , it's okay If you use this and you're using it wisely , your operators are trained . What's your return on investment and that's really what we try to get people to focus on when they look at robotics is it is an investment .
Speaker 1You can fly that investment out beyond the forward line of troops . So now you have a dynamic forward line of sensors , you have a 10X capability , you are creating decision advantage and you are owning and dominating the most important piece of key terrain that exists and that's the sky and organically . We haven't done that in the army At a tactical maneuver , echelon level . We always farm it out to somebody else . We got to phone a friend , but we're not phoning friends anymore . Leaders will make the decision get it in the sky , rotate it based on its performance envelope , battery or power consumption rates , what payloads it's carrying , make a decision to use that tool in the best manner to give you decision advantage , and then make a decision what are you going ?
Speaker 2to do PL You've made such like we were talking about before . You're like a folk hero in a lot of the army space . What leadership styles did you apply to that from all the experience that you've learned before national guard moving up , crushing it through ranger school to uh rotations , iraq , afghanistan , all these things what type of leadership did you have to adapt from leading steely eyed killers I like that term better in warfighter than to civilians , engineers like these big , beautiful brains ?
Speaker 1So you have to be eclectic . You have to be able to look into your internal display case and have a menagerie of leadership traits , qualities and tools . So in preparing for this last night I was looking , I was doing a deep dive on all the different leadership styles and I came to the conclusion the realization learned a little bit more about myself . It's like , hey , perhaps you're not just one type style that doesn't define you . You have to be adaptive . There may be times when you have to be transactional , like you have to scuff somebody up , and I've done that too . I'm very good at it . I don't like going high order , but sometimes it takes a thermobaric round to somebody's chest to snap them back into reality .
Speaker 1If you know , mr Bill Sanville always said you know he was deputy program manager at PM Maneuver Ammunition Systems . You know he was deputy program manager at PM maneuver ammunition systems . You know he . It always made him mad when people like draped themselves in the flag or they would just use false narratives to justify their lack of give a damn or their lack of willingness to to chop wood and do hard work . So sometimes it's gotta be transactional and people will make you mad , but then you know you go into being a you know , like I said earlier a coach . Hey , maybe Josh doesn't have the depth and breadth that I do . I got to coach you to get you up to my level . You know , if your standard is lower , I need to coach you .
Speaker 1And then also , you just like a democratic style of hey , josh , you know , I think I got the answers , but I'm going to , I'm going to exercise some humility here . How would you go about attacking this problem ? So you know , that's the democratic process . And then where I think a lot of leaders lack is , uh , is in their vision . A vision should change and evolve as you achieve things . Um , you know it's . How many organizations have you been where you see the vision statement and it doesn't change for the entire time you're there . It should change , right . It should adapt your priorities and your mission will change based on the needs of your higher headquarters or what they want you to accomplish . So if you think you're just going to sit in a trench and your mission set isn't going to change , you're a damn fool and you're also lazy , you're complacent .
Speaker 2Complacent skills . You're a damn fool and you're also lazy , you're complacent .
Speaker 1Uh , one thing I , yeah , um , you know I hear a lot of this . One's a lot , um , a lot of people hate the word servant leader . I think it's a good thing . Um , you know , uh , two years ago I went through the adult uh wood badge course . Um , which is like the the boy scouts of America kind of . It's the adult leadership training thing . Right , it's like the ranger school of uh , of adult leadership and scouting . So , yeah , I was a scout , I was an Eagle scout , um , I learned leadership there .
Speaker 1But to go back and exercise patience , it's like I was in the woods last week with my son's troop . It was three degrees in a blue Ridge mountains , three degrees . So how do you mitigate risk ? Right , so we found a property with a two story barn that we could have shelter , right , you know , we got 60 gallons of propane tanks , we bought space heaters , so we made a safe environment so they could go execute like their snow sports program . So it's the guiding , it's the guiding force of leadership . So how do I , how do I , how do I protect my element , my subordinates , to enable them to do what they need to do , and that's grow , learn , adapt , fail often , fail early , be challenged . So that's why I love the Boy Scouts of America so much is because it offers young men and women now the opportunity to learn leadership lessons .
Speaker 1Like you don't really get that sometimes in a sport . You know my daughter does shotgun . It's an individual sport . I did , you know I shot . I shot in high school and I shot collegiately . It's an individual sport but collectively it's considered a team sport . You know , are you on a football team ? Are you the quarterback ? You know , are you the team captain ?
Speaker 1There's a lot of leadership roles layered in into life and the things we do . But in doing all of them , one one , one size doesn't fit all . You have to . You have to learn . You know you look at special missions , units and USASOC . You know my favorites , the 75th Ranger Regiment , who I consider to be the standard bearers of the United States Army . Usually if they're doing something they are the change agents for the rest of the Army . You know what they did with physical fitness . Look what they've done with . You know small unit tactics and then those leaders within that organization cycle back out into the operational force . You know there's there's many good ones out there . And then you have operational guys in the infantry and other branches that are doing things , they're adaptive , they're learning and as , uh , I think one thing we're fortunate to do as army leaders is we're never in one spot too long . You know , I think over the course of those 25 years I was moving like almost every two years . So you're getting thrust into a new environment where you have to change and adapt based on that organization's mission , its culture , its people , its leaders , whether they be good or weak , and you have to learn .
Speaker 1Like I showed up at Fort Sill , to be as an acquisition officer is my second assignment in the acquisition corps and when I got there no joke , they asked me they're like , why are you here ? And I was like what do you mean ? Why am I here ? And they're like , well , you're not a , you're not an air defender and you're not a field artilleryman .
Speaker 1And I thought about it and I said , yeah , but I'm an infantryman and I'm an acquisition officer . And I was like , at the crux of what I do is maneuver . And last time I checked , both of those branches work to support maneuver . That's why I'm here . And yeah , colonel Kelly Laughlin looked at me . He was the senior acquisition advisor at Fort Sill at the time when I arrived to FC did , and he said I'm going to make you the S&T advisor . It's a Lieutenant Colonel Billet , I know you're just a major but I'm'm gonna put you in it and um , so I had to .
Speaker 1I had to punch above my weight class right , and I had to learn quickly because I didn't know air defense . Um , I you know I called for fire a lot in afghanistan , like we rocked the hell out of those uh toad triple sevens , shooting charge eight , uh not you know nine times out of ten . So I knew a little bit more about field artillery , but I was weak sauce and air defense . And now look what we're doing with counter UAS and small UAS and how that now layers into the macro level or operational view and that architecture , that system of systems . So leaders rise to the occasion and then losers always talk about their past . Winners go out and make new opportunities and are change agents . So even with Ranger School , I'm proud of what I did there , but no one cares .
Speaker 2And that's okay .
Speaker 1It doesn't define you . It's like what next ? How do you take what you've learned and apply it to the next target set in life ? Talk about that 25 meter target and how you hit it , but what are you doing to change and get out and touch that 300 meter target and accurately touch that 300 target out and touch that 300 meter target and you know , accurately touch that 300 target consistently . Uh , you know , touch that , uh , that 300 meter target , knock it down what's beyond the uniform for you .
Speaker 2So let's kind of get to that point . Like you , you've served almost 25 years probably a little bit more than that when you get ready out , uh , you've made a lot of disruptive change for the better for the army and you're leaving it a better place than what you probably took it as what's next for you leadership beyond the uniform well .
Speaker 1Finally , at a point in my life where you know we own our house , we've set conditions , everything I've done , I've backward . I always have a backwards plan , right , it's like the acquisition framework I told you . It's like find what you want to kill , neutralize , defeat or destroy and work back from that . I've had that in my head since I enlisted in December of 2001 . I always knew this day would come and I gave you kind of the cancer diagnosis analogy I got seven months , six days . I'm really starting to feel that now . Or diagnosis analogy I got seven months , six days . And like it's really , I'm really starting to feel that now I'm also proud that we've been chopping wood .
Speaker 1As I hand this guy on or baton off , I feel confident that enough change is in motion now , like there's a bow wave of change that's built up that I can take the uniform off and then stay active in this space . Um , in 2001 , when I enlisted , if you had told me like hey , you're going to be doing robotic systems , uh , at the end of your career , uh , as an acquisition officer and , uh , an infantryman , I would have been like you're crazy , right ? Um , you can't see , you don't know what's coming , but to be here to be next to Fort Benning , which is a place , I'm sorry , fort Moore .
Speaker 2Yeah , it's a . It's a tough challenge to pronounce the right way .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah . And my mind is , when I think back in time , like , well , I can I call it Benning , because it was Benning at the time I was there , and now it's Moore , and General Moore was great , great man , and so was his wife . So now that we're here at Fort Moore for the fifth time you know we live up north of the base , it's a place near and dear to my heart , and just yesterday I was out on a range and I was like holy cow In the summer of 2002 , I was out here on Sand Hill digging foxholes . I was out there , you know , talking to Rob Ryan and kind of brought it all home . I was like , wow , this is pretty cool man , it's a walk down memory lane . And other guys that were out there still in uniform and then out in uniform working for industry , demonstrating capabilities for the upcoming army expeditionary warfighter experiment that we're getting ready to go deep into , they were all walking down memory lane too . So I'm at a place in my life where , you know , we actually hang pictures on the wall now because we know we're not moving in 18 months . So that's , that's comforting my family settled , my kids have friends . We're part of a community you know we're actively involved in scouting and the sports that they're doing . And you know working with local law enforcement up here in Harris County to try to try to teach them about small UAS , not in a tactical capacity , but you know , extend that sphere of influence and take a skill set that you've learned and become intimately ingrained and intertwined with and and teach them , make them better as they serve and protect the community as something I look forward to .
Speaker 1And then you know I talked about having done every job across the acquisition lifecycle . You know , from concept development , capability development , program management across . You know milestones A , b and C , science and technology , working with Army Futures Command and now five cross-functional teams . You know air and missile defense , long range precision fires , future vertical lift , soldier lethality cross-functional team . Close combat lethality cross-functional team .
Speaker 1You know taking that experience , operational test , big one that a lot of acquisitions like shy away from because they're cowards . You know I don't want to go to Fort Hood , I don't want to be a test officer . You know the , the OER profiles aren't there from from leaders it's like , hey , man , quit being a coward , like why don't you go down there and take what you give back , give back to one of those , those test directorates , with your operational basic branch knowledge and make them better . Test the stuff that you know our Cape devs and Matt devs are turning into material solutions . Go test it . You know , quit being a coward . You know , quit . Quit trying to hide out PEOs for your entire career . And and dodge operational test command . Get down there , take that step , go learn testing , cause you'd be surprised how many acquisition officers call me and ask me for a test experience . Like , hey , how do I , how do I navigate ? Like the T-SART process of getting you know soldiers assigned . You know what are the steps in operational testing within a tech and operational test command or AEC , cause they don't know , cause I've never been there . There's a lot of value in it too .
Speaker 1And when you go to industry , what's one thing you have to navigate with a program manager is going into operational tests . That's like your final check um before a full material release .
Adapting Leadership Styles for Innovation
Speaker 1Um , you know , first unit equipped like it's a condition setter , right , it's a milestone um with embedded within the acquisition lifecycle and if you don't pay attention to it or you're not knowledgeable about it , you're probably going to fail . Or your system is going to fail Um , because you know , know you didn't build in your system evaluation plan , your uh , your temp , um , if you don't know those things , if they're in words only , you don't have that experience . Um , that's a gap . That's a capability gap , right , we talk gaps and modeling and simulation , the foundational structure of which we build requirements off of , that's a gap in your own depth and breadth skill set . So when I retire , retire , all those things said , you know everything I just mentioned .
Speaker 1I want to transition to industry . It's the one part of the life cycle that I haven't experienced . So I got a gap Right . But I think I have a lot to offer and bring to the table in terms of program management , operational experience and then working across that entire acquisition lifecycle . I want to go there .
Speaker 1I want to do program management , I want to work on systems that I believe in . So I want to stay in the robotic and autonomous system realm . I want to maintain positive influence and be a contributor . I want to be a giver and not a taker across the joint small UAS CDD family of systems . And so , you know , focus really down on that group , one group , two level , where you know that pulls on my heartstrings and that's , you know , doing , doing things for doing things , for the maneuver force . So I'm going to stay here at Fort Benning . I want to be expeditionary and I want to work with a company that's working in that joint SWAS CDD strategy space and continue to work with capability developers across the DoD enterprise to continue to shape this Right , cause you know you can talk about it . Talking about it One thing is one thing , but you got to actually be about it . Yep , deeds not words . Deeds not words , heart , what'd you say ? Head , heart hand . Head , heart hand .
Speaker 2Triple H , yeah , triple H .
Speaker 1Mine was the undertaker actually , so he was more transactional . But yeah , that's , that's what I want to do , josh , and I appreciate you asking me that man , not a lot , not a lot of people ask that I think it's important because , I mean , this podcast is all about trying to help people on their leadership journey and life , in my opinion , is an entire journey .
Speaker 2It is a marathon . We have self-leadership . We have to learn to lead ourselves . We have a family . We have to learn to lead our families , lead our work .
Speaker 2At some point we all hang up the uniform , we put up our uniform , but we're still going to continue to lead our families , lead our work . And it's some point we all hang up the uniform , we put up our uniform , but we're still going to continue to serve and in whatever position is lucky enough to have you , whatever organization is lucky enough to have you , they're going to get a disruptive leader but an amazing motivator at the same time . And that's hard like having someone who can motivate and be disruptive at the same time . And that's hard like having someone who can motivate and be disruptive at the same time , because usually it's a bold personality . But you have that humble personality and that's learned through experiences , usually tough experiences , that we both share . So I'm excited to see where you take it next and how you continue to advance , like what you're passionate about , what I'm passionate about and then potentially , you know still working together . I'd love to have you on the show a year from now just to see that experience , like how you went through the skill bridge process , how you got aligned to a company , how you continue to work to advance this and where you're at and what you're still passionate about .
Speaker 2So I I genuinely am appreciative for people like you who have that selfless service . You've already served 25 years and now you're getting ready to go do that again in the private sector , but it's still towards the same purpose and you're building that momentum . So I appreciate it . Yeah , thank you . I'd love to kind of get now . So you've just broke a record on Tales of Leadership . By the way , I don't think I've ever had a podcast over an hour . I've just realized that we've been filming for an hour and 48 minutes . It's like the Joe Rogan show now .
Speaker 1I know it kind of feels like Protect Our Parks without the bourbon .
Speaker 3It's time for our final show segment that I like to call the Killer Bees . These are the same four questions that I ask every guest on the Tales of Leadership podcast Be brief , be brilliant , be present and be gone .
Speaker 2Question one what separates a good leader from an extraordinary leader in your eyes ?
Speaker 1Doing more than your fair share of the task and that internal acknowledgement that , hey , if I need to cross the line of departure at at zero five , I'm probably up at zero three doing what I need to prep as a leadership , as a as a leader , and then I'm . You know , when are you waking up ? When are you waking up the men ? They don't . How are you giving them their time ? It's the one third , two thirds rule , right , right , but it all boils back to doing more than your fair share of the task , and that's hard for a lot of people to do , and I'd be a liar if I said , even this morning I was like why in the hell did I choose the 08 time slot ?
Speaker 1But I was like I got up early , man , I got up at 04 . I prepped my workstation , got my associated materials for things I want to talk about that's doing more than your fair share of the task . It's also respecting you , running this podcast and trying to kick out a really good product and have dialogue with folks and help people on their transformational path of improving their leadership . It all boils back to doing more than your fair share of the task and chopping wood . I love that .
Speaker 2It all boils back to doing more than you're appreciated at task and chopping wood . I love that . Always goes back to a quote that I've lived my life by from Aristotle we are what we repetitively do . Excellence , then , isn't an act , it's a habit . I love that , dude . All right , so question two what is one resource that you could recommend to our listeners ? It could be a book , anything .
Speaker 1Yeah , so I'm , uh , I'm reading tipping point , uh , right now . And then also , you heard me say the 11 points of leadership , so you can Google it . Google 11 points of leadership , uh , boy Scouts of America , scroll down and you'll find them . Uh , that was very , that was very cutting and informative for me , learning leadership early in life , and I've always kept it with me . So if you don't have that in your toolkit , I'd recommend that . Another one is Dr Anthony Randall . You know , ex army chaplain . He's an assistant scout master with me . I just had a new book come out . Read his book as well and always be on that path of learning , because if you think you got it figured out , you're so wrong . You're so wrong right , you can always learn , constantly , inspired by my , my team and others . You know you , uh , you as well . You know major Chris Simpkins and major Matt Huff at it , the fire center . You can always learn .
Speaker 1So , uh , yeah , I'd say um you gotta kind of you learn , you learn to be either the salesman , the Maven or the connector , Right , and then what percentage of each of those you know ? Boil it back down to analytics . You know , uh , dom Edwards , my boss the other day , he's like I really see you as like a 50% connector , you know , uh , and then maybe like 25% Maven , and you know 25% salesman . Um , you know to to make that a hundred percent and he goes . But the thing with you , brad , you fluctuate , you know , you know , you , you is that you fluctuate . You can go all in to that pie chart in one piece if you need to , but he goes . I always see you coming back to being the connector in that triad . So , yeah , those are three things I would say , tipping point , 11 points of leadership , and then Dr Anthony Randall's new book .
Speaker 2I love it . So third question if you could go back in time and give your younger self a piece of advice , what would it be ?
Speaker 1Don't be so quick to rush to a red light . I think oftentimes we got a lot of tenacity and audacity and risk-taking when we're younger . Don't rush to a red light . Take your time . As I look back on a 25-year career and where I am now , I probably wouldn't have been able to be as successful in this job if I hadn't gone through the gauntlet of all the other jobs that I've done over those 25 years .
Speaker 1So it's developing depth and breadth and experience . So if you're in a job , even if you're the leader or , more so , the follower , learn why you're there . Learn everything you can about that job . It's the next man up drill , right ? What are you going to do if I'm your platoon leader and I get killed ? You have to rise to the occasion . So take all those experiences . Life is an experiential learning model with leadership inflection points sprinkled in along the way where you will grow . You know my . My dad always told me you know , if I did something wrong or whatever , he's always like Michael . He's like age , and treachery will always overcome youth and exuberance . He's like I brought you into this world . I can take you out of their stud , so tread lightly . My Scott master , Greg Tozer , always said I was an equivocator , right . They'd tell me where the line was and I'd get up on the line , and when they weren't looking , I'd step over the line and I'd push the envelope . So be an equivocator , take risk and all those other things I just said I love it , man .
Speaker 2So the last question anyone who's listening to this podcast , they want to reach out . How can they add value to you or what you're trying to do ? Right ?
Speaker 1now I'm going to be self selfless on this one . If you're in a space across the DOD enterprise , take time out of your day to learn what we are doing with the joint small UAS capabilities development document . You're not helping me , you're helping those steely eyed killers . Uh , our war fighters , our soldiers , our airmen , our sailors , our special operations forces , um , our , our Coast Guardies . You're helping them .
Speaker 1So , um , take a deep look into this , this robotic and autonomous system space , and then look at what avenues of approach you have , seems you can exploit with the codified requirements , documents in the existing framework , law , policy and regulation and appropriations . Beef us up , help us go faster , hold us accountable to regenerate those requirements and then , more so , take those lessons learned , if they're deemed to be of value , and share them with other teams . They may not know what they don't know or they may have never been pushed to this extent , but you have to find opportunities in life and I was very fortunate to find this opportunity and RRT and have Rob Ryan believe in me and who I was and what I can bring to the team . No man , no man is an Island . Right , help , that's , that's really what I want .
Speaker 1Don't help me help enable the advancement of robotic and autonomous systems . I'll be fine , I'll find . I'll find my own way . I always do . I'm like a cat , I always land on my feet . But yeah , I really want help across that space , especially with regard to the Joint Small UAS CDD , because I truly believe in it . I believe in the work we've done and I think once we start rolling out these systems , we start regenerating and upgrading these systems . The United States and the Five Eyes are going to be a powerhouse , a world powerhouse , and how we are going to fundamentally change the way we fight wars .
Speaker 2This has probably been , selfishly , one of the best podcasts that I've been able to film , because one I get to reconnect with you , which has been absolutely awesome , and then two we're cut from the same cloth , so it's always refreshing to have someone on that shared the same life experiences and then we're so aligned with what we're currently doing right now . But again I leave it here is that I am appreciative of everything that you've done and continue to do , and it's been a pleasure to kind of know you , my friend . So thank you for being a guest on Tales of Leadership , and if there's anything I can ever do for you more than willing , just phone call away .
Speaker 1Yeah , let's go fly FPVs , man . Or , I'm sorry , let's go fly purpose-built detritable systems .
Speaker 2Yeah , I'm going to try to unlearn the term FPV , so I use PBAS from Nolan . Thank you , appreciate it , josh . Awesome it , josh . Yeah , have a good one . Thank you . All right , team . That was an absolute amazing episode . I really never filmed an episode for almost two hours . I feel slightly like Joe Rogan , I guess , in a way , and I could have easily went way beyond two hours , but I want to go get a workout and Brabs needs to go shoot Right . So this has been an absolutely amazing . So now it's time for our after action review .
Speaker 2What are the top three takeaways that I wrote down from this episode ? And I think the first one is leadership is not a set style , it's adaptive . So what does that mean ? Is not a set style , it's adaptive . So what does that mean ? We have tools in our toolkit that we gain through experience and that were put into a position of influence or title is given to us . We choose the right leadership tools to inspire and direct and provide that motivation for other people . However , I really believe , and at the core of Lieutenant Colonel Brabner , we all have core values . Those core values are what are consistent throughout our lives . Humility is definitely one , brabner , and I think another one is radical candor . But we have those core values aligned to us . All the rest of our leadership traits and skills are adapted to the environment we have . So you need to understand that that you're going to continue to get new leadership challenges , new positions in your career . It's okay to adapt different skill sets to those , but make sure you always hold your core values to who you are . But make sure you always hold your core values to who you are so you're showing up as your true , present self , never as someone fake with arterial motives .
Speaker 2The second one is do your fair share of the tasks . That is something that I believe a lot of people need to hear , because leadership is selfless , not selfish . What does that mean ? It means that you are going to go . Need to hear because leadership is selfless , not selfish . What does that mean ? It means that you are going to go . Need to do the hard things , do the hard rights over the easy wrongs . It's easier said than done , but when you're faced with a problem , are you going to take on your fair share of the tasks or are you just going to try to delegate ? Or are you going to wait until the next person comes in your position and not even solve the problem . If you are a purposeful , accountable leader which I know you are because you listen to this podcast you do your fair share of the tasks . Do not deviate from those or try to get away from your own responsibilities .
Speaker 2And the last one is risk . We are in a place and time in our world where we are seeing amazing technological feats , and I go back to what SpaceX is doing right now . We landed on the moon , we were able to do that , and we didn't have another successful one for almost over 40 years until this man from South Africa came here and decided he was going to be a disruptive agent . It takes risk . He had three failed rocket attempts before he finally had a first fourth one . Risk is incremental and engineering
Life After Uniform and Final Leadership Insights
Speaker 2right , like , if we fail it doesn't mean that we failed , it just means that we've learned . So next time it can become better and it would come better and it come better . So , where that learning curve , efficiency applies .
Speaker 2But you , as a leader , one fundamental truth is probably the most important , regardless of where we are on our phases of leadership right , it's our ability to absorb information quickly , determine the risk , then move out . Do not allow risk to paralyze you in your decision making . And both Brabs and myself we've come from a different cloth . We're both infantry officers , we've both been in combat , we've both led troops in combat . We've had to make decisions that means life or death on the spot . A lot of people don't do that , and that's okay . That doesn't mean that you're any less of a leader than we are , but we are adapted making those types of decisions and quickly weighing risk . You need to learn how to do that if you're going to continue to be a purposeful , accountable leader in this world .
Speaker 2All right , team . Hey , do me a favor . Make sure that you do a couple things . Make sure you like this podcast , make sure you subscribe on whatever platform you choose to listen and , if you so choose , make sure you share this podcast . Leave a comment if you're able , and if you would like to donate to the show , you can go to tells a leadership on buzzsproutcom and there's abilities to do that , and I promise you , everything that I make from this podcast helps me continue to make good content for you guys , because it's not easy as an active duty army officer and I'm financing this all myself and if you listen to this and you want to be a show sponsor and you align with my core values . Reach out . I'm absolutely open to trying to find the right show sponsor for this podcast so I can continue to make the best content possible for you guys in this world . As always , team , I'm your host , josh McMillian , saying every day is a gift , don't waste yours . I'll see you next time .
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