Tales of Leadership
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Tales of Leadership
#116: Mike Durnin - How Servant Leadership Turns Tragedy Into Purpose
Mike has dedicated his career to higher education, serving as a football coach, instructor, and administrator at multiple colleges and universities. Throughout his tenure, he contributed to several conference championships, coached numerous All-Conference and All-American athletes, and mentored countless current teachers and coaches across the Midwest and beyond. As the President and Founder of Via Crucis Leadership, LLC, Mike is a dynamic speaker who brings passion, humor, and heartfelt stories to audiences. He emphasizes essential leadership skills based upon his “Handful of L’s” as a foundation for those striving to navigate and lead in today’s complex, “Chaordic” world (forces of chaos & order colliding). Guided by his mission of “1-0 Every Day in Every Way: Living life creating a transformation of self and others.” Mike inspires individuals to unlock their potential, embrace resilience, and foster meaningful change in themselves and others. Mike also serves as the President of the Chris Norton Foundation and was featured in the acclaimed documentary “7 Yards.” He holds a Doctor of Ministry degree and continues to lead with purpose and impact.
Connect with Mike Durnin:
-LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-durnin-dmin-49903017/
🫡 My Why: I’ve seen the cost of poor leadership — how it can destroy morale, break trust, and in the worst cases, lead to lives lost, including through suicide. That’s why I’ve committed my life to helping others lead with purpose. Through Tales of Leadership, I share real stories and actionable insights on how to overcome adversity and become the kind of leader people remember for the right reasons.
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- Joshua K. McMillion
And one of the things I think you can relate to is we are going to have chaos in our lives. We're going to have and we're going to have crucible events, those unplanned, unforeseen things that are going to happen. And how we react in those situations is crucial. I share a story a lot. When I was the head football coach at Luther College in Decor, Iowa, had a freshman football player who had made it to playing on special teams. And in the third quarter, he goes out. We had just scored, you know, we were trying to get back in a ball game. He goes down the field to make the tackle, makes the tackle, doesn't get up. And doesn't get up. We ended up learning, of course, that day. He had fractured C3 and C4. And the doctors had given him basically initially a 3% chance any movement below the neck. However, because of his attitude, his effort, because of his family's attitude and their efforts, because of the attitude and effort of his friends and all the medical personnel. Now he still spends most of his time in a wheelchair, but he has movement.
SPEAKER_00:You're listening to the Tells the Leadership Podcast. This podcast is for leaders at any phase on their leadership journey to become a more purposeful and accountable leader. What I like to call how. Join me on our journey together towards transformational leadership.
SPEAKER_01:All right, team, welcome back to the Tell the Leadership Podcast. I am your host, Josh McMillian, and I am on a journey to become the best leader that I possibly can. And I plan to do that by bringing on what I like to call purposeful, accountable leaders, your pals, those who lead with intention, integrity, and make an inspired impact in this world. And I also will share with you my own stealth-studies, leadership habits, and my experiences that I've lived through all through the lens of my leadership journey. And it's always important to reframe my why I've seen the cost of poor leadership, how it can destroy morale, break trust, and in the worst cases, lead to a loss of life, including through suicide. That's why I've committed my life to helping others lead with purpose. Through Tales of Leadership, I share stories that are real and actual insights on how you can overcome adversity and become the kind of leader people remember for the right reasons. And here's some free resources before we begin. If you're new, you can go to Linktree slash Tales of Leadership. Everything is there. I just updated it to make sure that the blog articles that I write, the podcast, how to get a hold of me, anything that you need, it's all there and it's super easy. And it's in the show notes too under leadership resources. Uh, you can also go to McMillian Leadership Coaching slash tells of leadership. And in there, with this episode, there'll be a white paper distilling down the key lessons from today's guest. And as always, make sure that you subscribe so you can get the latest updates from the articles or from the podcast episodes when they do get released. And as always, stay to the very end. I will be doing an after-action review, sharing my top three takeaways from today's guest so you can go practice those in your leadership journey. But on today's guest, I have Mike Duran. Mike has dedicated his career to higher education, serving as a football coach, an instructor, and an administrator at multiple colleges and universities. And throughout his tenure, he contributed to several conference championships, coaching numerous all-conference and all-American athletes, and mentored countless teachers and coaches across the Midwest and beyond. As the president and the founder of Via Cruz Leadership LLC, Mike is a dynamic speaker who brings passion, humor, and heartfelt stories to audiences. He emphasizes essential leadership skills based on his handful of L's, which we get into, and I absolutely love those, as a foundation for those striving to navigate and lead in today's complex or chaotic world, the forces of chaos and order colliding. Guided by his mission, one equals zero every day is every way, living life creating a transformation of self and others. Mike inspires individuals to unlock their potential, embrace resilience, and foster meaningful change in themselves and others. Mike also serves as the president of the Chris Norton Foundation and was featured in that acclaimed documentary, The Seven Yards. And if you get a chance, go watch it. It's on Amazon Prime. He holds a doctorate in ministry and continues to lead with purpose every single day. This is a phenomenal episode. So make sure you stay to the end. So we'll cover the AAR comments. Without further ado, let's go ahead and bring on Mike. Mike, welcome to the Tales of Leadership podcast, brother. How are you doing?
SPEAKER_02:I am doing great, Josh. And it is truly an honor to be here on Tales of Leadership. Uh, I've listened to your podcast on numerous occasions. Love the people that you have brought onto you know this platform and sharing ideas on leadership, I think is just truly outstanding.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, no, I I I appreciate that. And it's always like humbling to hear too, because I started this journey a couple years ago just wanting to like pull out of my brain all the leadership lessons that I've had from like my amazing mentors that I've had through the military. Um, and it's always humbling when people do reach out and say, Hey, like I learned something from you, which for me I have that imposter syndrome. Still, like, oh, you learned something from me. I was like, that's it's humbling from someone from your background. Um, and I think that would be just an absolute great place to start. And I love having this first question of how you define leadership because I think it sets this tone for the episode as we continue to go through.
SPEAKER_02:Great question. Um, the definition I've used for for many years now is I talk about it being the skill of positively caring for and inspiring others for the common good. And and the reason I use that definition, I love the word skill in there, because I believe all of us have the ingredients to be a leader. It's where we are on the continuum on all those ingredients. And but we can get better, you know, just like you can get better at, you know, walking, shooting a basketball, uh, you know, strength training, uh, reading quicker, you know, whatever books you're reading. We can all improve. And leadership is an area we can actually improve upon with practice. Uh, and then I love you know, the positive, it's a mindset. Uh, you know, we control two things in our lives, uh, basic our attitude and our effort. You know, no one can take that away from you. If you make that choice to have a positive attitude and positive effort, that's yours. No one can steal that from you. The caring for, I mean, to me, you know, it goes back to an old Teddy Roosevelt quote, which I'm going to kind of rephrase this a little bit, but people really don't care what you know until they know that you care. And we need to care for others, we need to inspire others and so that they become motivated. See, I believe you motivate yourself, you inspire others. And so, how do we inspire others so they are motivated? And then the common good means we're working what I would call an ethical and and uh you know virtuous goals in mind. So that's how I kind of come up with that that definition.
SPEAKER_01:That's a beautiful definition, and I love how you tied uh that Teddy Roosevelt quote into it. Because it's so true, and I think how you labeled that attitude and effort, those are the two things that we can control. And I think that everyone is a leader, um, regardless if you see yourself that way, because you have to lead yourself, and that's where the models that we have to do in terms of the the behaviors and the values that we want to model into the world, you have to start that with yourself, and then it carries on. So I think that's an absolutely beautiful definition.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you. And and and I totally agree with you. Uh, one of the the main uh keynote speeches I give is actually titled Lead You to Lead Others.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, wow. That's interesting. How did you learn that kind of that leading yourself first? Like, was that through college coaching or was that through like reflection?
SPEAKER_02:You know, it's it's been a long process, you know. I'm I'm sitting here, this gray hair is here for a reason. I've I've been around uh Ronda Sun a few times. You know, I was very fortunate. I had a and I played high school and college football back in the 70s, and I had two men, head high school coach and head college coach, that even though the term servant leadership really wasn't in vogue at that time, they were truly servant leaders. And the reason they cared about people first, and they were more concerned about how you were developing as a person, how you were gonna go forward in your life, you know, before they cared about football games. Now, both of them were very successful. I mean, between uh my last two years of high school playing for his head coach, I mean, we lost a total of three games, you know, all through college, you know, lost a total of five games. And and so these were very, you know, renowned, you know, coaches and successful coaches in terms of the scoreboard, but what they I think they really did is they modeled and really took after the role of servant leader before that was a term, and and through that time, I'd just been very fortunate, you know, from reading conversations, listen, you know, as technology improved, you know, you listen to TED Talks, you listen to podcasts, uh, all those things have helped shape and put language into the things that resonated for me. One of the great stories, I mean, back in the early, early 2000s, I read a book called The Servant by James Hunter. Great book for for people to read. It's it's his story and and how he came about the servant leadership. And and he really he tells it in a different way, though. But I also had a chance to hear him speak in person. And it just like this is it. And I need to take this information and I need to start modeling this to a higher degree, and I need to try to help people become servant leaders as well.
SPEAKER_01:I gotta figure out another thing. I always say this on every podcast is I love that. But I do, I love it. And so you you have not only spent your life coaching and mentoring and training young men and junior leaders, you are constantly, and this is a theme that I see with uh what I like to call a purposeful accountable leader, someone who shows up with integrity and makes an impact, is that they're curious and they're constantly improving themselves, and you continue that theme. So that's that's awesome. And one of the things that I've noticed too growing up playing sports is I had like two different types of coaches. I had a coach that focused on you as a person and developing you as a young man when I was going through football, or someone who was just solely focused on skills. And I think I've had a greater impact from mentors growing up, like a Mr. Stump or a Mr. Bennett, and I can remember them vividly in my mind because they grew me as an individual and as a young man, and those principles, you know, were just instilled like, hey, let's get the small things right. If you can do the routine things routinely, everything else will just fall into place. And and I love how you kind of walk through that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's it to me, it's a constant, you know, I I use the word pilgrimage as opposed to journey. And the reason I do that is because a pilgrimage, by definition, continually gives you a new and expanded meaning in your life. And I really believe we need to live pilgrimages as opposed to a journey going from point A to point B. We need to embrace each day as a special gift, and that gift will continue to provide us new and expanded meaning. And so that's how I just look at it.
SPEAKER_01:I think you and I have almost like a similar motto in life. And mine is every day's a gift, don't waste yours. And I've developed that through reflecting on some of the most extreme memories that I could possibly think of, like while deployed or going through training programs or whatever it is, and just remember how bad those days could be. And then when I encounter a problem today, it just helps me recenter of like, is this truly a problem or is it just an obstacle? But hey, today's a great day. My family's fed. Uh, I have a job that I love, and I'm doing something with purpose. So let's continue to move forward. And I love how you kind of frame that too.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you know, and one of the things I think you can relate to is we are gonna have chaos in our lives.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:We're gonna have and we're gonna have crucible events, those unplanned, unforeseen things that are gonna happen. And how we react in those situations is crucial. Uh, you know, I share a story a lot. Uh, when I was the head football coach at Luther College in Decor, Iowa. I still remember it's October 16th, 2010. Had a freshman football player who uh had made it to playing on special teams. And in the third quarter, he goes out. We had just scored, you know, we were trying to get back in a ball game. He goes down the field to make the tackle, makes the tackle, doesn't get up. And ended up, and the young man's name is Chris Norton, doesn't get up. He we end up learning, of course, that day. He had fractured C3 and C4. And and the doctors had given him basically initially a 3% chance of any movement below the neck. However, because of the, you know, we talked about attitude and effort, because of his attitude, his effort, because of his family's attitude and their efforts, because of the attitude and effort of his friends and all the medical personnel. Now, he still spends most of his time in a wheelchair, but he has movement. And and and he he was able to, with the assistance at that time, his fiance, walk across the stage and get his diploma. He was able to, after uh they got married, walk seven yards down the aisle after the wedding together, you know, arm in arm, so to speak. And and it's a beautiful story. It's on it's on TV, it's on a movie. There's a movie called Seven Yards. Highly recommend to anybody to watch this movie. It is inspiring. It'll tell you his story, and and you see all these dynamics in terms of how to take a tragic event and never allow it to be a tragedy. And and so, you know, it's it's a great story.
SPEAKER_01:I always talk about like build a team building, at least with team building, is there's two ways to do that through repetition, just being around people long enough, and then hardships going through shared hardships together just galvanizes relationships. And that's why I think like in the military, like some of the men that I deployed with in 2012, I could meet them just like how we're having a conversation in a day and pick right back up where we left off. And I think people probably on the football team around Chris's time, they probably could do the same thing. And you 100% could pick up a conversation with any one of those athletes, which I think is absolutely critical. How did you help frame your team when they went through that hardship? That's a that's a that's a significant thing. How did you get them across that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, I had already tried, yeah, I've been working on you know, frameworks, how do you embrace chaos, and then how do you lead your lead yourself? So I've been working on framework like that for for a number of years. This made it very visible, and it really put it to the forefront. And and so as I look at it, you know, that there's what I call five tools that help you first embrace the the chaos. One is to stay calm, and I know they probably talked to you guys in the military about that. You need to stay calm. If you panic, you're in trouble. Okay, so we work on strategies. I'll work with people one-on-one. How can you best stay calm? And one of the things that you know I work with them on is I want you to list all the crazy things that could possibly happen in the next 24 hours. And then if you know that, now imagine that happening and staying calm with it happening. Okay, so staying calm is number one. Number two is understand you're gonna need others. None of us lead by ourselves. We don't lead ourselves by ourselves, we don't lead others by ourselves. We're gonna need others, and and there's a variety of roles others play. There's some that are gonna be directly helping you, there's some that are gonna basically help the person who's helping you, there's some that are gonna encourage you and encourage the people helping you, and and you need to embrace all those roles, and I think it's critical, you need to understand you need to be able to play in that role as well. You need to be the one helping somebody else, you need to help the person who's helping somebody, you need to be the encourager, and so you're gonna need others. The third one that I think is too is what I call that that vision that of no matter what. Okay, and and you know, uh it came about actually. This is you know, I'm gonna bring some movies in here again. Watching Apollo 13. And if you remember in the movie, people who know the movie, they basically at one point he says, failure is not an option. Okay, well, we all know failure is gonna happen at some point, but the mindset there was we're gonna make it happen. We're gonna believe in our process, we know what the mission is, we know what our values are, we are gonna do everything. Everything we can, no matter what, to make it happen in the positive. And I think, you know, that's one of the things that Chris did more than anything else in his story. He had that no matter what. And that transcended throughout the entire team, within the program, within the school, within the community, etc. The next, the fourth uh tool is what I call and then some. So many of us stop when it gets hard. And can you continue battling through it? My guess is you were in some boot camp training sometime, and it might have been really easy to stop, but you didn't. You went the extra mile. You went and then some because that, well, we just talked about that no matter what mission was still in your mind. And you were going to go that extra mile. So you got those four tools, and then the last one actually goes back to what I talked about in a definition. You know, attitude and effort. Is it positive? Is where where are you at with that? And in each of those, you can measure yourself and self-reflect. And you you already talked about self-reflection. You need to be able to have honest self-reflection to lead yourself and to lead others. And so that needs to be there. So those are the tools in terms of embracing it. And then, you know, the big thing I talk about all the time too, then is how do you build your foundation? You talked about leading yourself. Well, each of us needs to have an address, our home. You have a mission. You, you know, you're you're you have a mission, you have your own purpose in your life. And I know one of those purposes is to share leadership with as many people as possible. But you also have the mission and vision of the military. Okay. And unfortunately for you, they're they're probably marrying up pretty well.
SPEAKER_01:Very synergistic. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Okay. So, but you need to build a foundation. And and I use, you know, I I'm a I joke with people, I'm a dumb old football coach, okay? And and I like to keep things simple, but one of the simple nursery rhymes is the three little pigs.
SPEAKER_01:You're a man after my own art, just so you know that. So I consider myself a dumb infantryman, and I follow the keep it simple, stupid framework.
SPEAKER_02:So there you go. So, but when in the in the in the fairy tale, the three little pigs and the big bad wolf, you know, one builds a house in straw, one's got sticks, and one's got the brick. Okay. Well, the one with the brick took time to build their foundation, their house, their address. And and the big bad wolf, that represents the chaos we know is inevitable, the setbacks, the challenges, you know, that's what that represents. And if you have a great foundation, you can handle that. And so to build that foundation is where, again, I try to keep things simple. I came up, and I what I talk about now is my handful of L's. And there's five L's I believe people can work on each and every day to help themselves to be able to lead themselves and if applicable, lead others. And and the L's are basically continue to learn, continue to laugh, and what and that incorporates, you know, we know humor is is important. And my my guess, my guess, even in the midst of that boot camp in those trainings you were in, there was some humor in between.
SPEAKER_01:So there's some similarities there too. Is like so I know like through Chris Norton's story of when he was going through that rehab and recovery, humor played a very large part of that. And in the military, it's funny that I've I've kind of reflected on some of those memories. In the middle of an engagement or in the middle of a firefight, we find humor in just having conversations with people. So it's funny how that transcends either in the military or in the civilian world or athletics.
SPEAKER_02:I I there's I think there's a lot of symmetry between military athletics, and I actually believe that symmetry is within business as well. So, so now you got the two L's. You got, you know, you learn, be a continual learner, you laugh, continue to listen. And I talk about, you know, think of imagine two water sprouts coming down. One is hitting a brick, one's hitting a sponge. Well, the one that's hitting the brick, the water goes everywhere. Okay, that's the person who's listening to respond. The one that's hitting the sponge, that sponge is absorbing that. Well, that's the person who is listening to understand. And I believe we need to continue to work on ourselves. Uh, if I'm working one-on-one with somebody, I'll give them a task for the next few days before we meet again. And I'll say, okay, when you come back, I'm gonna ask you about three conversations that you've had with somebody. Whether somebody at work, somebody at home, you know, you know, you were sitting at a coffee shop, whatever the case may be. And I want you to bring back and tell me as much as possible what you talked about, what they talked about, not what you talked about, what they talked about. And and I've done and I've done the same thing when I teach classes, and I still do some adjunct teaching in between, is I'll have people share. We do a lot of sharing back and forth. And when they report back, they don't share what they shared. They have to share what the other person said. And and so by doing that, you do two things. One, you improve your listening skills, but but you also provide value to your partner, to the other person that was sharing to you. And I think that's critical. The fourth uh L is continue to live. Use as well as anybody. No, you got to be in arena. Okay. And and there's no guarantees. And I and I use the Teddy Roosevelt. I got the plaque on the wall in my office. My daughters all have a replica of the plaque. You know, it's not the critical counts, nor the person who tells how the strong ones stumbled or the doer deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the person who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives violently, who errors and comes short again and again, who knows the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause. And who, at the best, knows the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if they fail, at least fails by daring greatly, so that their place shall never be with those toll, with those cold and timid souls that know neither victory nor defeat. And I challenge people, be in arena. We're not going to be perfect. No one on this earth is perfect. We all make mistakes. And so you need to live. Okay. And and and I've done it in a lot of different ways. I have a great fear of heights. I've always had that. Okay. I also, back in 2011, jumped out of a perfectly good airplane.
SPEAKER_01:Now you and I share that commonality.
SPEAKER_02:And have actually done it twice. And it was kind of like overcome. Hey, you got this fear, being arena, you know. Now there was some safety with it. And of course, I did get a kick out of the waiver you have to sign with that one, says the very first line, you may die from this activity. Okay. Understand that, but it was still worth it. And then the fifth L is continue to love. And this is where I think servant leadership has a great pathway. Because when you serve, you are making love visible. And it's it's a quote I've kind of borrowed from a guy named Tom Thibodeau, who is in charge of a servant leadership program at Vaterbo University here in western Wisconsin. But to say it again, service is love made visible. And when we serve others, we're sacrificial. We are doing everything we can to help them. Yes, you have to be honest. And sometimes people think, well, servant leadership means you let somebody just do whatever. No, that's not servant leadership. You need to be honest with people, and here are the expectations. Here is what we have agreed upon to be our mission, to our be our goals. And if we're not hitting those, we need to be honest with each other. And then if there's a now, a servant leader, though, is gonna say, is gonna walk up and say, Joshua, how how can I help you more so that we realize these goals? You know, they're gonna find solutions as opposed to just you know kind of berating somebody. And and so I think that's the essence of continue to love. And like all good, you know, children's cereal, there's always a prize at the bottom of the box. And and in within my handful of L's, I have a bonus L. And it's the L of legate, it's the L of legacy. And it yes, it's a legacy that you leave with others, but when your mind and your heart and your soul are open to continue to learn, continue to laugh, continue to live, or listen, continue to live and continue to love, others will leave a legacy upon you. And that is really beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:There is just so much to unpack there. Overcoming hardships, I love those five steps. And one that kind of sticks out with me is I I kind of label it the vision or like the burning desire. And to to blend both of our worlds together, like the Cortez moment, right, where he burnt the ships at the beach. I I think of a modern day burning desire or just an unwavering resolve that we will move forward is an aerosol. So let's say you're in an aerosol, you're in Helos, you're getting ready to go, insert on an enemy objective, and eventually they're going to touch down. And when they do touch down, you're on the ground and it's you and your men. You have to clear the objective, you have to achieve your mission, or you're not going to leave. And at worst case, you don't come home if you don't achieve your mission. At best case, you all come home. And I think, and that's really helped me because I've had to do that in real life, and that's really helped me kind of understand. Like I apply that same mindset to everything that I've done in life. And then one thing I've learned too is optimism is the currency that leaders um expend. If we are optimistic, it is contagious, it just goes throughout the formation. And what a side effect of that is what you've talked about is risk taking, the weighing the likelihood and understanding the consequences. If we can understand those, then we will move forward and we'll do bold things collectively as a team. So that was one of the big takeaways. I've already wrote like four pages of notes, and that I love too how you talked about the the five L's of live. And one thing that kind of sticks with me uh there is emotional intelligence plays a big role. And how you talked about jumping out of an airplane. There's self-awareness and self-management, how we process emotions and then how we move forward in the world and how we actually follow through. The only way to get through things that scare us is to go do them. That is a very, very important nugget. And I wanted to make sure people understood that because that was that was straight fire, Mike. Uh I that was we could end the podcast episode now because you've you've done everything amazing.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you. It you know, it's you know, through all these years, and and you know, the number of things you experienced during a lifetime, you know, Chris's story is one. Uh, you know, I had at a university that basically said, we no longer need your services. We want you to resign. That's you know, that's the coaching profession saying you're fired. Okay. They just come, they just use different language. And, you know, that could have really brought me down. What it led to was my next role. I was coaching for a few years, and all of a sudden the president of the university comes up to goes, Mike, how would you like to do us a favor? I said, you know, you know, you really only have one answer there, okay? Yeah, sure. And he goes, I want you to take over student life for the university and be part of my cabinet. Now, understand at that point where I was at, there were two positions between him and I in terms of reporting. I was gonna get bumped all the way up here. And and I basically looked at him though, I said, Jeff, my background is in teaching people to be P teachers, to be a football coach, and some aspects, you know, been around athletic administration. You want me to run student life? He goes, I don't care what your background is. I know how you make decisions, I know how you process things, I know you believe in our mission. That's what I want in this role. And you will learn the things along the way. And and will there be chaos and setbacks and challenges? Yes. I mean, in the first 48 hours, I had a sexual assault case between two students, and I had a racial incident where people were posting things, and and so I had you know students that just you know were ready to protest, they were protesting, and and I had to go meet with everybody. That was my first 48 hours. But all I did was remember the tools I talked about. I'd already kind of laid that framework for myself. I just used the tools. Stay calm, don't run away from it, okay? Don't run away from the situation, don't run away from the conversations that need to happen, but stay calm. Know that you're gonna need some others along the way. Make sure that vision is there, and so the decisions you make relate, you know, are in conjunction with that vision. And I knew I had to go in then some, didn't sleep much those first 48 hours, okay, but that was okay. And I knew I needed to stay positive and put my effort in here because, and I tell young professionals this all the time, students, young professionals, remember every day is a job interview. Every day, people are watching to see how you not that you make mistakes or don't make mistakes, they want to know how you react, no matter what the situation.
SPEAKER_01:Today's show sponsor comes from 10th Mountain Whiskey and Spirit Company. They are a philanthropic award-winning craft distillery located in the heart of the Rocky Mountains in Colorado. For being a listener of Tales of Leadership, you get 10% off on any order using the promo code PandoCommando when you place an order at 10th Whiskey.com. Both of those are in the show notes, so you'll be able to find them. 10th Mountain Whiskeys and Spirit Company honors heroes and they craft legacy. I've commanded two organizations in the 10th Mountain, and both of which are very deeply impactful to me. This is a company that I stand behind. And if you're looking for a great bottle of bourbon, look no further at 10th Mountain Whiskey and Spirit Company. Back to the show. There's an organization that I used to support, and there's a motto within that is that every day's a tryout, uh, depending on how you show up. You don't have the job. Um, it's how you show up in the moment every single day. And I wish I would have had someone in my corner when I was a young person uh like you, uh, especially when I was a brand new first to second lieutenant of staying calm. My emotions would always override my actions, and then they were just taking autopilot. And then eventually, you know, I I I matured enough to where I realized, like, hey, I am angry, but I need to process that and figure out what are the next steps and do that in in real time? Uh and you coaching up till 2017, you then go take the lead for student integration on campus. How did those so several questions there? How did the skill sets that you learned from being a football coach apply to that? And then, oh, by the way, COVID happened in 2020. So, how how did that work out?
SPEAKER_02:Well, we'll get to COVID in a second, because that's a pretty good story in itself. But but really and truly, when when we had that meeting, and he said, here's what I want you to do, you know, I thought about the everything I learned through the years. And and one of the things I had some great mentors along the way who kept recommending, hey, don't just study football, study psychology, study leadership, study, you know, how the business world puts their teams together. And so I had already been doing a lot of reading and looking at that. And so to me, you know, and you've probably read the book, you know, Turn the Ship Around by by David Marquark. And, you know, what he did in terms of interviewing everybody, that's what I did when I got to my new role. I sat and talked with my direct reports, but all the other reports as well. I wanted to spend time and know what was on their mind, what did they see? And and this is where anybody can give you a great solution. I had a student, RA, who said, Mike, goes, she goes, I just took this course on my own, but it's an eight-hour mental health first aid certification course. She goes, I truly believe everybody should do this because we're dealing with mental health issues all the time on campus. And and from her advice, okay, this is a student who's probably like three rungs down from where I was at in my role. I put an initiative in, and we started requiring everybody in student life to be mental health first aid certified. And I'm certain it helped us. You know, I know it helped us because we were able to recognize a couple situations where somebody was attempting suicide. We were able to get people there quickly before you know one person had done enough. Where if we wouldn't have been there within 30 minutes, they were going to be dead. And so I know those things pay off. Now, is it going to be 100% perfect? No. But it really pays off when you start being preemptive about that. And then what really helped was one of the things you do in coaching, football coaching, is you really, you know, sometimes we probably overprepare. You know, we watch all this film, we we get our game plans ready, we think of scenarios. What if they do this and what if they do that? Well, that's what helped me with COVID. Is, and I still remember uh our university chief of staff, I contacted them in January of 2020. I said, I think we need to start meeting and be ready for this. It's gonna hit. Everybody was saying, and we actually started meeting in that January, and by the time March came around, we had plans in place because we knew some of the things we had to be able to do was our student body was better off being on campus than being sent home. And and so we had to have all the logistics in place. How are we going to do this, you know, for the common good of each one of these students? And and so all these kind of things played in. We we made it work. We actually came back that fall in full strength. We had our residence halls filled, and uh while a lot of campuses across the country were still struggling with this, we said no. We did some things with it in terms of where we placed people and how we had them check in if they didn't feel you know, if they weren't right, if they did come down with something, we had plenty of spaces, we had things in the community, we had allotted some space for students to basically, you know, be alone. We had technology in place in terms of being online no matter what, and and so it it still worked. We were way under, we were like probably almost 50% under the numbers that were happening around the country.
SPEAKER_01:Wow. And you kept everyone on campus, which was interesting because I was getting my master's degree at the same time, and they're like 100% virtual, and you know what Major McMillian did was grow a beard. That's 100%.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and I think everybody had different you know, now I think it really behooves all of us. How do we handle that segment of our lives? And you know, you and I have talked about, I mean, uh, I had the opportunity years ago, this was back in the early 2000s, I was at Fort Lewis on an educators' trip, you know, sponsored by the by the US government and the military to experience what our ROTC students were experiencing during the summer. And one of the things that I'll always remember, I still have this a copy of the card was the AAR or the after action review card. And and I remember going through that, and they're teaching us why they do it, you know, the purpose of it, how to do it, how to be honest, don't hold anything back, don't, you know, if if you've made a mistake, that's okay. Because we're gonna learn from these mistakes so that the next time you're in a situation, you're gonna do better. And you know, I still think about those COVID years, the things we did, and think about how we did it, knowing that in case something ever happened in the future, we can basically share some ideas. Hey, here are some ways to maybe do this even better than what we did before.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, uh Fort Lewis is near and dear to my heart because that's my first duty assignment. So I went there, 4th Battalion, 23rd Infantry Regiment, the Tomahawks immediately deployed. My wife had the best time in the world, uh, and I had the worst time in the world. Um, but the AAR concept was something that I learned when I was going through college and when I was in the National Guard before when I was prior enlisted, but it really didn't like land on me until we were getting ready to build up a deployment. And we're going through all these different training exercises, starting all the way from individual soldier tactics up to company level and battalion live fire exercises, and we're trying to determine um TTPs or techniques, tactics, and procedures or standard operating procedures, SOPs, so we could have our book ready when we go deploy. So we could have a quick, easy access of what we'd want to do. And we'd always do these AARs. And what I've learned when you have those types of conversations, you have to set up the ROE right out the gate. Like an ROE stands for rules of engagement. So, number one, what we're going to say in here is for the betterment of the organization. Anyone has a voice, it doesn't matter what your rank, duty, position, title is. Number two, have thick skin because not everyone is the best communicator, especially in the infantry. There's at least several F words in every sentence, and that's okay. Uh, but just don't criticize um individuals, don't point out individuals, provide constructive criticism for the team and really what an AAR concept is, and it's so beautiful because it follows the framework that you and I love as KISS, but it it's a feedback loop, and everyone needs a feedback loop to continue to iterate and get better. And I now I see that process throughout my entire journey acquisitions and and engineering, and like all it is is just feedback loops, getting information real time so you could iterate and become a better version of yourself.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I whole wholehearted agree. And actually, you know, because it relates for me, there are a number of years where I actually taught statistics for people who are gonna be P majors and going into the coaching profession. And most people, a lot of people hate math. Uh hate statistics. Okay. But I used to start off, and I there's an author, uh Kachikan is his name, and he talks about, he puts this diagram into his books, and it's a beautiful diagram. You have the world before analysis, then you measure, then you have to manipulate and make sure you can present that measurement so people understand, then you need to evaluate it, and then you have the world after analysis, and and it, but it runs a full circle because it keeps going. And so we must constantly think about here's the world. Let's make sure we look to see what's happening. Numbers are great. Sometimes you're using words and feelings and emotions, etc. But you're still measuring, you're still manipulating, putting those things, you know. Uh, one of my mentors spent 27 years as director of research and development in the NFL. And his thing was you take he all his job was to take all the information and provide the head coach a one-page summary saying, here's what this all means. And then they could evaluate that and say, okay, this is how we need to move forward. That's your world after analysis. And but it just keeps going around in a circle.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. It kind of goes back to the Mark Twain quote, and I don't know it verbatim, but sorry, I couldn't write short of how can you distill down information, uh, like a 40-page white paper or an entire book uh into a very short, concise document that is tangible, that has metrics associated to it, and it has the so what labeled. And because at the end of the day, uh as you grow um and have you growing in your leadership, one thing that is always less of is your time. So you have to be able to distill down information quickly and make a decision rapidly. And that's hard to do. And as much as I joust that statistics is the devil, uh, quoting the water boy, um, I I genuinely grew to love it. And I may or may not do cost-benefit analysis now when I try to make decisions in life, hard decisions.
SPEAKER_02:But yeah, that's it. And then I would just throw in with that. I mean, you know, we use all these things, okay. Uh a quote I like to use is, you know, when the opportunity arises, it's too late to prepare. And and and and and so we need to constantly be doing this, and that's part of our preparation to be a better version of ourselves as we go forward in every day, and and the brevity for which we can say things. Um, Pete Carroll, you know, longtime successful college and NFL coach, uh, wrote a book called Win Forever. In the book, he challenges the reader to write their purpose statement, their why, in 25 words or less. And so that's where, you know, basically for me, it's you know, want to know every day and every way, living life, creating a transformation of self and others to be better. There it is. I mean, that's my why. And what I love it took me three months to write that to get it down. All right. But what it did is, and I started thinking about it, because I wrote this before I even got into student life or doing a lot of other things in my life now. And I think about that why my purpose, it transcends anything I'm doing. So whether I was coaching, teaching, you know, an administrator, speaking doesn't matter. That that holds true for everything I'm doing.
SPEAKER_01:That that's a great practice, I think, that anyone should do, regardless of your and an active leadership role, because it goes back to the concept of self-leadership. We're all leaders of ourselves. So, what is our purpose? And I like to think of it in like a waterfall concept of what are we passionate about? What do we just like wake up in the morning and just love doing, know what we're gonna do it? What do we find purpose in? Um, that intrinsic motivation to physically do uncomfortable things in difficult times. And then I the last one is precision. Once we have a passion and purpose, what's our assignment? How are we gonna go make an impact? And then if we can do those three things, I think that is such a valuable tool, regardless of where you are in life. If you can just do that exercise, I think you'll you'll find fulfillment. And I think that's one reason too. You know, one of my whys is veteran suicide. Um, and people get out of the military. I feel that they lose such a deep sense of purpose. Like, hey, you wake up every morning, you have someone telling you basically what to do. Every single day, you have a very purpose-filled mission, and then you get out and you you're left to your own devices. And the longer you stay in, the more institutionalized you become, and the harder it is to transition out. Yep. Um, so that's a powerful exercise. Yeah, exactly. So kind of transitioning to what you're doing now. So you've been a highly successful college coach, um, transitioned into more of administrative roles. Uh, you've been a teacher, you got a PhD in uh was it uh ministry? Ministry, yeah, doctor of ministry. When did you do that?
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's interesting. I actually started in February of 2020.
SPEAKER_01:So COVID wasn't hard enough.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, COVID wasn't hard enough in all the things that I was doing. I actually started in February of 2020, and and it was a little bit of people were looking at what I was doing and how I did it in that student life role. And and the University of Dubuque is where I was at, and they also have, in conjunction with the university, have a theological seminary. And a people, a couple people asked, Mike, why don't you do this? Well, at the time, they had a rule that said you had to be an ordained minister to go for your doctorate in ministry. Well, I'm not, and I said, you know, and they said, we don't care. We like to try this anyways, and we think you're the you know, the candidate we want to do that with. So I finally made a decision after about six months of discussion to start my doctorate in ministry, knowing that I would actually retire from higher ed before I would finish my degree. But it was probably the best thing I did because it gave me more perspectives, gave me more understanding in terms of what I was dealing with on a day-to-day basis. Uh it kind of forced my hand to read even more because we were reading like uh 20 books a year as part of the curriculum, which was fine. I mean, there are great, great books. I still have them all sitting here on a bookshelf. And and I reference a number of them to this day, but it really just set the tone and it really meant Mike, live your first L of continuing to learn. And and so that was a big reason for it, and uh yeah, and I was able to, within my dissertation, combine leadership with faith. So uh I basically synthesized leadership concepts, a lot of what we already talked about, by with between faith-based leadership research and secular research, and then assigned them within the mainly Roman Catholic Church, but some other Orthodox churches use them as the stations of the cross. And basically it's you know, Jesus' passion and how each of these concepts relate to each of those stations. And then I put a workbook together, we did seminars on this, that was part of my dissertation. And uh, you know, John Maxwell, who I know anybody who's interested in leadership reads John Maxwell. You have to.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, it's like I was getting ready to bring that up.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and but John Maxwell will tell you if you ask him what's the best leadership book ever written, and he will say the Bible.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And there's so much truth in that, it's not even funny.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it kind of goes back to like the John Maxwell Foundation. I wanted to make sure I looked this up to come together, uh, to come alongside leaders around the world and add value to them so that they can multiply value to others, and that his foundation, we talked about this. The foundation of leadership is a faith-based foundation, it's a values-based foundation. And the whole goal is to build a better leader so they can multiply and create a bigger ripple effect in the world. John Maxwell is a huge resource for faith, and another one I'm curious if you've read Jesus CEO. Have you read that book before? Yeah, that was by myself over there. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That's one of my favorites. I have, I don't know how many different I have Jesus on leadership. I mean, you name it. I, you know, I I was using a lot of those to research when I was writing my dissertation.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah. So what do you what are you doing now?
SPEAKER_02:Um so so now, you know, the way I look at it, you know, I I re I I'll use the word retire only from a framework because I really don't think I've retired. I've repurposed myself. And in my repurposing, I really my goal is to share from my learning experiences, a lifetime of learning experiences, with others so that they can actually be better than I ever was in what they were doing. And and I I simply just do it, you know, uh I end up giving, you know, doing podcasts like this. I, you know, do keynote talks, conferences. It could be, I could be in a high school one day and I'm doing a facility management conference two days later. Um, but you know, I love uh my father used to joke, you know, most people have two fears in life, the fear of death, and fear, you know, fear of speaking in in front of others. Uh for our family, our family might be a fear of death, but our other fear is not having an audience. So we are kind of, you know, my sister did stand-up comedy for three years, okay?
SPEAKER_03:Ooh, I can't do that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. We we love audiences. So I I love you know, sharing stories because that's what speaking is, is you're just sharing stories. And so I do that. I do work with some people one-on-one, uh, trying to help them. You know, if they come and say, I need some help, and we'll set up a program, we'll meet for a few months, and I'll give them through some steps. You know, we talked about those tools in the handful of L's. Uh, I have a checklist that they go through to see how am I doing in this checklist, and uh so that they can become a better leader themselves and again, if applicable, leading others. So those are the things I'm basically doing. I still read, I still research, and and then I have this great joy of five grandchildren who live all within 20 minutes of me.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_02:And and so we do go to a lot of activities.
SPEAKER_01:Tons of sports again. You got it. Yeah, that I uh my daughter just started uh travel rugby. So this weekend uh we're we're going to New Jersey, so I have to drive five hours, uh, five hours back. But I I mean honestly, I wouldn't have it any other way. And I think you're you're living that next chapter of your life, and and I truly am inspired by the amount of service that you've done, uh, what you're passionate about, how you continue to grow every single day, and some of the hardships that you've gone through. So, one thing I'll take away from this episode is I 100% will go watch um Seven Yards. I haven't got a chance to watch it yet. You may have now just provided me the fuel to my wife to buy Netflix, uh, but we shall see.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, it's it's actually not on Netflix anymore. Now you have to actually, it was on there for two years. You have to do uh Apple TV or Amazon Prime.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I got Amazon Prime, so we can do that.
SPEAKER_02:There you go. You got it.
SPEAKER_00:Um it's time for our final show segment that I like to call the killer bees. These are the same four questions that I ask every guest on the Tales of Leadership podcast. Be brief, be brilliant, be present, and be gone.
SPEAKER_01:Question one. What do you believe separates a good leader from an extraordinary leader?
SPEAKER_02:How they care for others.
SPEAKER_01:I love it. Number two, if you could provide or recommend one resource for someone who's listening to this show that can help them on their leadership journey, what would it be?
SPEAKER_02:There's a book. By Doris Goodwin called Leadership in Turbulent Times. I've never heard of that one. Must read. It gives you, I think it's four or five different examples of great leaders and how they did it.
SPEAKER_01:Number three, what is one critical leadership lesson that anyone listening to this show can apply in everyday life?
SPEAKER_02:I'm going to use Walt Whitman's quote: be curious, not judgmental. And listen and listen like a sponge as you do that.
SPEAKER_01:Last one. And this is always the hardest. Where can our listeners find you and add value to what you're doing today?
SPEAKER_02:Best way to find me is on LinkedIn. If you just type in my last name and then put the initials after that of D M I N, which is Doctor of Ministry, uh I'm the only one on there like that. So that's their fastest way to find me. Send me a note. And if you say ELF or free or whatever you want to put in there, I'll send you the checklist on a handful of L's.
SPEAKER_01:Mike, I'm so glad that we were able to make this connection. I'm not joking. I think I have like six pages of notes because I love uh learning from every one of the guests I have on here. And I've learned so much from you and inspired by what you've done and what you continue to do. So thank you for everything.
SPEAKER_02:Well, thank you, Josh. It's really been an honor and a pleasure to be on your podcast as Tales of Leadership. I think what you're doing is fabulous. I mean, you're bringing in high-quality people uh that I am just humbled to be a part of that the show this way. And, you know, to me, when we talk about this, and and I I know I shared it once before, but I just sincerely pray and you know, my thoughts are with everybody to keep your minds and your hearts and your souls open as you continue to learn, laugh, listen, live in love. And everybody on this show can be blessed with that bonus L legacy.
SPEAKER_01:I love it, brother. Have a great day, and thank you again for sharing your time and wisdom. Thank you very much. All right, team, time for our after action review, phenomenal episode. Uh, we honestly had another conversation for 15 minutes once we stopped recording. So I want to make sure you understand, too, the Chris Norton Foundation, because we didn't get the chance to cover this. But if you're listening to it now, uh, go there. And if you're looking for a nonprofit organization to support, uh, that is an absolute great one. You can find that through the Chris Norton Foundation. Just hit it in the googs or whatever search engine, you'll be able to find it. So, so many key takeaways. Uh, I had a hard time kind of bounding down what my top three takeaways were, uh, but I think one of the first ones is developing others. And this one struck a chord with me when Mike discussed this first. Is throughout my own leadership journey, I've had mentors, I've had coaches within sports take two different approaches. They solely focus on skills, or they focus on developing the whole person. And I'm telling you right now, that is the secret to leadership is leading the whole person. You can teach anyone a set of skills, but it's very, very hard to develop a whole person. And that's one reason that I love youth sports and sports in general, because I think the purpose of sports is to create strong men and women that can go be good productive members of society, regardless of how well you may play basketball or how well you may play football or whatever sport you you is your chosen profession, you're developing the whole person so they can go out and they can do uncomfortable things in difficult situations. That one struck a nerve with me because some of the greatest mentors that I've ever had has really focused on my personal growth and not necessarily the skills. And and to be honest with you, too, a lot of the skills are just really on you. So someone can teach me how to do a skill, but unless I actually go turn that aspired skill into a practice skill, pulling a thread from Benet Brown, it's never going to stick to me. You can teach me all day until I actively go do something, crawl, walk, run. That army methodology is that you teach me something, uh, then you do it with me, and then I'm actively going and doing that thing. But always focus on leading the whole person. The next one was under his handful of three L's. The one that I love the most is laugh and why. So some of the most tragic memories that I could possibly think of uh have been some of the most humorous and fun. When I was a platoon leader, I think some of the initial firefights that we got into, I we always would have humor afterwards. Or when we were sitting at a patrol base and it was it felt like 130 degrees. We didn't have cell phones or things back then uh in 2012 during deployments. So I don't really know how hot it was, uh, but it felt like 130 degrees, and you're just sitting there baking in the sun, and you're essentially just waiting to get shot at or go on a patrol, that we would just find so much fun in just our each other's company and humor. That's one thing that the military and the combat arms, I think, just absolutely excels at, and that's critical in going through those crucible moments that Mike talked about is that crucible moments do one of two things. They begin to build trust and they create a deep relationship uh or bond within teams. But a way to continue to build that or and to overcome complex situations is through humor. Never allow your heart to harden. If you're that leader who takes him or herself seriously 24-7, you're allowing your heart to harden. Humor is one of the best tools at your disposal to connect authentically with people and never forget that. The last one that I had kind of tied back into some of his five tools that he shared for overcoming uh chaotic moments where chaos and order collide, and I love that term by the way, but I kind of rephrased it um in my way. So passion plus purpose plus precision that equals fulfillment. And we talked about during this episode of doing a practical exercise of reflecting on those things. What are you passionate about? So let's talk about passion. What brings you an intrinsic motivation uh that you're just overjoyed, you're elated, you wake up every morning and this is your first thought in your head. You just get pumped up because you get to go do that thing. So maybe you love to go run and that day is your marathon. You wake up, you're just full of energy. What do you do in life that brings you that level of passion? And get it, uh, some days are bad, right? Like every morning I wake up, not every single morning because I'm not a robot. Do I just get up and like, yay, I get to go to work today. That's that's life. I understand that. But I am always passionate about what I do because I understand the why. I'm trying to bring capability to the warfighter at the speed of war. And my last job was in robotics, so within Special Operations Command. So that was definitely uh something that I was deeply passionate about. Purpose. Purpose is really tied more to a legacy. It's the deeper why. Why do you have that passion to get up every single day and do uncomfortable things? That takes time. You have to sit down, you have to reflect on those things. What experiences, good or bad, what mentors, good or bad, what tools do you have, habits do you have, good or bad, that have helped you build a purpose in life. And what is your purpose and what is your legacy long term? That last L that Mike talked about, and then precision. All right, you know what you're passionate about, you know what your purpose is in life. Go find your assignment. And I just wrote a blog article on this, it talks about doing good work and it's connecting your purpose in life with finding your assignment, but that's the secret deeds, not words. What can you do in this life right now to go make an inspired impact? And if you can figure out what that is, you will find fulfillment. What I just gave you is my equation to fulfillment in life. A passion connected to a purpose with precision will equal fulfillment in life. I don't care who you are, what your job is, that is the secret to having a fulfilled life. All right, team. Uh, this was a phenomenal episode. And do me a favor, I always ask this, but I sincerely, sincerely mean this. If you find any value in this episode, it would be a huge help to our show if you like, share, and subscribe to this podcast on wherever you listen. Number two, leave a review, give me feedback. I love hearing feedback and let me give give me some additional ideas on leadership topics that you would like for me to cover. And I'll do some deep reflection or I'll go try to find someone who is a subject matter expert in that field and bring them on and bring you that wisdom. Number three, go follow me on social media. You can find me at tells the leadership.com. And then number four, I'm actively looking for a show sponsor for the show. But if you would like to support, you can go to tells the leadership.buzzsprout.com and support in any way possible. As always, team, I am your host, Josh McMillian, saying every day it's a gift. Don't waste yours. I'll see you next time.
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