Tales of Leadership
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Tales of Leadership
#121: Jason Sharp - What if Suffering is Your Path to Growth
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Jason Lee Sharp (born November 23, 1986) is a Chicago native, businessman, author, and soldier. He is the founder and CEO of Sharp Leader and Sherris Lounge, an infantry company commander in the Kansas Army National Guard, and the author of Eyes Wide Open: Learning to Suffer. Sharp also serves as a principal program manager at Leonardo DRS and is a member of the board of trustees at St. John’s Northwestern Academies. With a diverse background in leadership, business, and military service, he has focused his career development, growth, and mentorship.
Sharp’s journey began in Chicago, where he survived a challenging childhood marked by drugs, homelessness, and the streets. After graduating from St. John’s Northwestern Military Academy, he pursued higher education at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, earning a bachelor’s degree in social welfare. Sharp went on to complete an executive MBA at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. His career spans multiple roles, including positions at Honeywell Aerospace and St. John’s Northwestern Military Academy, before he founded his consulting firm. He joined the Kansas Army National Guard in 2018 and later became an infantry company commander. In addition to his business and military leadership roles, Sharp launched the non-profit gritKC in 2023 to support youth in Kansas City.
Connect with Jason Sharp:
-Website: https://www.learntosuffer.com/
-Books: https://www.learntosuffer.com/books
Tales of Leadership is a leadership platform dedicated to developing Purposeful Accountable Leaders (PALs) through real stories, shared experiences, and practical insight. Each episode breaks down the decisions, failures, and defining moments that shape leaders in the arena—offering honest, experience-driven lessons you can apply immediately. It’s built for those who want to grow with intention, elevate how they lead, and make a lasting impact—because leadership isn’t about rank, it’s about responsibility, and the greatest leaders live by one principle: deeds, not words.
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Letting People Fail Safely
SPEAKER_00Our our job as leaders is is to enable our people, allow our people to fail without becoming a failure. Right? How do you let people fail without becoming a failure? And that's because you are focusing on praising effort instead of outcome out the gate. And so when you focus on effort instead of the outcomes, the outcomes will follow. Right? When you focus on the effort, if the effort is there, the outcomes will be there, if that makes sense.
Mission And Why Leadership Matters
SPEAKER_03Welcome to Tells of Leadership. Our mission is simple to develop a better leader by arming you with the tools required to lead with purpose, integrity, and accountability. This podcast is designed to do one thing. Help develop a more purposeful and accountable leader, what I like to call a power. Leaders who are in the arena making tough decisions, lifting others up, and choosing people over their own egos. Through real stories and conversations with leaders who have walked that path, a powerful leadership lesson, you'll gain the wisdom needed to tackle any obstacle this world can throw to. If you're ready to step into the arena and become the leader your team, your family, and your community need, you're in the right place. This is Tales of Leadership. All right, team, welcome back to the Tales of Leadership Podcast. I am your host, Josh McMillian, and I am on a journey to become the best leader that I possibly can. And I plan to do that by bringing on what I like to call purposeful, accountable leaders or pals, those who lead with intention, integrity, and make an inspired impact. I also plan to go through my self-studies, my leadership habits, through my journaling experiences, and sharing it with you through the lens of my leadership and why. It's always important to go through my why. I've seen the cost of poor leadership, how it can destroy morale, break trust, and in worst cases lead to a loss of life, including through suicide. And that's why I'm committing my life to helping others lead with a purpose. And through Tales of Leadership, I share real stories and actual insights on how to overcome adversity and become the kind of leader people remember for the right reason. So a couple free tools. If you're new, just go to Linktree slash Tells of Leadership. Link will be in the bio. Everything is there to include the blog articles, uh, coaching services, you name it. It is all right there as a one-stop shop. Uh super easy to do. Uh finally, make sure that you stay to the very end, and I'll do my top three takeaways. But on today's
Meet Jason Sharp And His Story
SPEAKER_03episode, we're going to be bringing on Jason Sharp. Jason is a Chicago native businessman, author, a soldier. He is the founder of CEO of Sharp Leadership and Sarah Slounge, an infantry company commander in Kansas Army National Guard and the author of Eyes Wide Open, Learning to Suffer. Sharp also serves as the principal program manager for Leonardo DRS and is a member of the board of trustees for St. John's Northwestern Academics with a diverse background in leadership in business and military service. He has continuously shaped his career with a focus on development, growth, and mentorship. And I'll say all of this too is that Jason has such an impactful story, and I really mean that. Going back from his childhood, growing up in a family that was very dysfunctional, and this one has some cuss words, so just be prepared for that one. Growing up in a family where his mother was a crack addict and his dad spent most of his time in jail and learning how to fend for himself and figuring out how to change his life around, beginning to trust people again. There's so many nuggets in this episode that you can pull from uh by the pain that was turned into purpose in Jason's life, and we brought it out. Um, I'll be honest with you, uh I felt extremely comfortable uh with Jason. This is one of my favorite episodes. And if you're listening to this specific episode, uh this will be the last time that I record Tells the Leadership for a long period of time. The army gets a vote, and I'm gonna be going and doing something for the next hundred and twenty days. So I will be back even more full of vigor to continue this. But let's go ahead and bring on Jason. Jason, welcome to the Tells the Leadership Podcast, man. How you doing?
SPEAKER_00I'm doing fantastic. How are you, Jeff?
SPEAKER_03So I it it's going it's going well. Uh first apologize for the miscommunication within times, but we were able to make it work and then also having to reschedule. So thank thank you genuinely for taking the time out of your day um repetitively and getting this thing set on the calendar. And if Chris Wheatley, if you're out there in the ether watching this, uh thank you for making this connection. And I'll start off with, dude, I read and devoured your book uh that you sent me probably in five days, just commuting back and forth to the Pentagon, uh, hearing your story. It's going to be really hard, I think, to capture all the lessons learned from your background of everything that you've kind of gone through in terms of like suffering, which I know is like a main theme for you. But we'll try to do our best. But again, thanks. And uh first all we'll just start off with like a quick introduction. You want to just quickly introduce yourself uh to the audience?
SPEAKER_00Certainly. Uh my name's Jason Sharp, and uh I'm local here out of Kansas City, Missouri. I grew up in Chicago, Illinois, but I've been all over the country and the world, of course, like many of you that are listening. And uh, you know, I spent my early early career enlisted, became an officer, did that, and then uh I moved into the national security realm uh where I currently exist. Uh I spent many years working on various nuclear weapons. Uh currently, I support the Columbia class submarine program, which is the Ohio class replacement program. And anybody in the Navy uh working on directed weapons, uh, I support the Energy Magazine for that, so you know what I'm talking about.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, yeah. And so, you know, that's that's really my realm right now. Uh, but I enjoy you know, to your point about the book, the the book is largely was my healing, and that's that's where that that that's where that comes from.
SPEAKER_03I definitely like later, I definitely want to tie tie into that of like your wilderness journey, if you will. Like, I think every every person goes through um a healing to and quiet reflection. And in a reading through your book, I could definitely connect that to how you use that as therapy, especially when you did the ice trail. We'll get we'll get all to all of those, but I'll start off with the first question.
Defining Leadership Through Effort
SPEAKER_03Um, and it's usually the first question I always throw out there is how how do you define leadership in your own terms now?
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, I think for the most part, especially at our level, I think we all have developed some level of leadership philosophy, right? And you know, for me, I think it comes down to depending on the level of leadership, or maybe every level of leadership, you're trying to get people to do things that they don't want to do because they want to do it. And that's a very difficult thing to do, right? You you we all know the classic definition, you know, purpose, direction, and motivation. But in large part, a lot of folks that are existing in the world today are doing things that they don't want to do. So, and they're they're trying to take a step somewhere, they're trying to get somewhere, they're trying to you know use it as a gateway to their their their uh next stage in life. So uh if if you're leading those those people or uh or any any any kind of organization, how do you get people to do things uh you know in in some common fashion to achieve that common purpose, especially if they don't want to do them? Uh and that's that's the hard part.
SPEAKER_03100% agree. And I think you and I being in a military background, like really cutting my teeth, like within leadership, some of the things, especially combat arms, being an infantryman, going through ranger school, ranger school is a perfect example. How do you lead someone who is mentally and physically exhausted beyond the point of where normal people never get to, but then motivate them enough to actually do a good enough job to where it resembles some form of battle drill in a way, and that that was super challenging, and I love that definition, man.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think I think uh the key there, Josh, is especially when you're talking about folks that are exhausted mentally, physically, right? Our our job as leaders is is to enable our people, allow our people to fail without becoming a failure, right? How do you let people fail without becoming a failure? And that's because you are focusing on praising effort instead of outcome out the gate. And so when you focus on effort instead of the outcomes, the outcomes will follow, right? When you focus on the effort, if the effort is there, the outcomes will be there if you're if if you are focused on that, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03No, I think that's perfect, man. Is that it kind of goes back to like James Clear inside out thinking of where most people are always focused on the outcomes. Um and and and nowadays, especially in like leadership, and I see it because I've I've seen multiple levels of leadership within the civilian and the military world, is everyone's focused on outcomes, focused on outcomes, focused on outcomes. But really, what it is is that the internal processes that get you there. And if you focus on those things, if you focus on who you want to become or how you want to lead from a cultural standpoint or a climate standpoint, and the systems to get you there, the outcomes will happen naturally. But if you're tunnel focused on the outcomes, you forget the squishy part of leadership, which is the people. It's the uh how you say it, the uh I think the uh executive skills that are that are required in that or the or the software.
SPEAKER_00Executive function skills, exactly. That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Dude, I read your whole book. I feel like I know you. Um, feel like we're best friends. Well, I appreciate that. So kind of continuing.
Childhood Survival And Broken Trust
SPEAKER_03Yeah, man. I think it was great. Um, let's start off at the beginning because that's uh how the book starts off. Walk me through just a young adolescent, Jason. Like what was your upbringing like?
SPEAKER_00Uh it was, you know, at the time I wouldn't know any different, right? I look back now, but it was exceptionally challenging. I mean, we we suffered. That was that was you know, that was our life in Chicago. We grew up on the streets. My uh my father spent most of my young life in prison, and my mother, you know, was a crackhead living on the streets, and that's where we lived. We ate out of dumpsters, we lived in shelters, foster homes, you name it. You know, it was uh it was exceptionally challenging, uh especially after my younger brother Jesse was born, uh, you know, and it was just my sister and I taken care of him. You know, the first time I ever stole from anyone was to feed my brother. Yeah, that that's you know, not trying to to be a bad person, I'm trying to feed my family, right? And that's a struggle that I think a lot of people have, and they don't understand that in some cases, but that's how it was. You know, it was it was a fight every single day.
SPEAKER_03I think one of the one of the stories that that stuck out to me, I'll be honest, man, like on the verge of crying, is when you learned to stop trusting people. And the story was is when you just got this brand new bike, awesome bike. Uh, you went to sleep the next morning and it wasn't there, and then you found out that your mom went out and most likely sold it to to buy a driver.
SPEAKER_00She did, and and she did. And and and we'll get into my mom, you know, she did. Uh it's and that's when I learned what might be true today and tonight won't necessarily be true in the morning. And so, you know, you you have to at that point it was okay, it's me, myself, and I. Yeah. Right. That's that's sort of when I felt the most alone. It's nothing is true, nothing is real unless I make it real. Tough lesson, man.
SPEAKER_03When you were when you were going through that, like one thing that like just struck me is how you were able to have this indomitable mindset through it. Um, and there's definitely some like pivot points, but like that level of suffering, and I think that's definitely gonna be a core theme within this episode, tends to have people go down dark rabbit holes. Suffering, usually, at least from what I've seen, tends to allow the darkness to creep in, not have light within. And and I genuinely like 100% impressed by how you were able to have such a indomitable mindset. I can't think of another word to describe it, uh, to to break through that. Because most people who would play uh in the Cartman's uh Cartman Triangle, they'll play the victim card. Well, life isn't meant for me. I I'm never gonna try because I'm never gonna get that. This is who I am. Um, and then no matter what I do, I'm not gonna be able to change that fact. But you were like, hey, F you, man. Uh, I'm gonna figure out a way to do this. And story after story after story after story, you just kept going, man.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that's you know, the thing about, and I think you understand this better than than most civilians, and all of you that are out there that have suffered for sure understand shared suffering, right? Shared suffering is is certainly the the backbone there with my sister and my brother, right? Where we're in a survival mode. Because nobody nobody wakes up and and wants to have a bad day, nobody wakes up and and and wants to die, right? So you you go into survival mode, and my mother, you know, for all of her uh fallacies, she did teach us to survive. Like she warned us, like you will be alone, and there will be times when I won't be here, and you're only gonna be seven or eight years old. And so, you know, she warned us and she taught us, and so those are some of the you know the things that kept us going from a survival perspective. But you know, my my sister, she really was the backbone in terms of that survival instinct, and and that's really what pushed us all to keep moving.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that that's like one of the things I really wanted to to dig in and and tap into going through that, I think at a very young age, and I think you hit a couple of those points already. It's like what were some of the key lessons that you learned in the most traumatic parts of your life that you were able to carry on? Uh, and I think like how you just said, suffering is like it's unavoidable. And I guess like to pull a Marvel quote out, uh like Thanos, it's inevitable. To live is to suffer, and it doesn't matter what you do, where you go, what job you have. And I think a perfect example of this is in the news story. Um, I can't remember her name to save my life, but a celebrity chef. Um, she just recently committed suicide. And I wish I would remember her name, but I like to me in my mind, that person had everything. She was uh an icon celebrity chef on TV, uh, and behind the scenes, she was she was suffering, um, just like everyone else was suffering. And to pull those lessons from them, what else did you learn? You know, just kind of going through that from adolescent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, the the biggest thing, even at a young age, if I wanted to survive, yeah, I I needed to say yes to anything and everything. And and that's part of a whole conversation about comfort zones and leaving your comfort zone, right? And and I yep, and I I I literally just said yes, like some random, random act, somebody randomly saying, Well, I don't know you, but they said, Look, I'll get I'll give you 50 bucks if you come to my basement in the back of my house and you do these things for me, and by that, you know, clean the garage, whatever the case, right? Or uh it's you know, by chance, you know, by chance, do you want to come and and and help me pass out these fly? I just said yes. And and and and now I call that you know recognizing sliding doors, right? Life is full of sliding door events. So that's what I that's what I learned to recognize is to jump through the sliding door and and and allow every opportunity to unfold and then I deal with it.
SPEAKER_03Sue, you know, I never I never shy away from uh from my faith. Um I'm just a very faithful person. Uh, and I think a lot of that has been driven through by some of the experiences I've gone through in the military, but I kind of reflect on sometimes when I pray about something, like right, like if I Lord, like I put me in a position of where I can live with purpose, uh, fill me with purpose. That may manifest in a way of where, uh and I'm using a real world example right now. I just showed up to a new job, a job that I interviewed for. Uh within a week, I was told I'm going to Germany unplanned. Uh, and then next week, hey, you're getting a brand new job on this very um hot tasker that the army needs you to go do, and you're gonna be gone for the next 120 days in Europe. Uh I was like, all right, let's do it. And I think the standpoint there is that that that that fills me with purpose because that mission aligns directly to the skill sets that I have. But someone looking outside in, like, man, I'm sorry, that that sucks. Uh, you're gonna be pulled away from your family. But I look at it from a perspective of like this is filling my soul, and I can go do a greater good, and I'm the right person at the time for this. And if you don't step into that sliding door, like you said, you're never going to move forward. Those are the opportunities, and that's what set sets up people who are extraordinary in life and people who just glide, is that they take those opportunities when they come and they don't shy away.
SPEAKER_00Exactly. No, that's that's that's exactly right. Because if you want something different for your life, you need to do different, yeah, you need to be different. And by that, to your point, an opportunity comes your way, you know, you you you you take it. And now, yeah, you have the conversation with your family, you have the conversation with your wife, right? You do those things and you weigh the uh the the the cost, you know, you do the cost benefit analysis, right? Everybody does that, and sometimes it happens in seconds, right? But once you figure out the difference between you know passion, so for example, passion, right? We're passionate about a lot of things, but what makes your heart sing is very different. So if you can figure out what makes your heart sing, and if whatever sliding door has opened in front of you and it has made your heart sing, then that is that's the right answer. That's the right
Sliding Doors And Saying Yes
SPEAKER_00answer.
SPEAKER_03So kind of walking through you know your story, uh, where did your childhood turn around? I know there was a couple key mentors that really played a pivotal role, uh, but walk me through that of where you started to build trust again uh and find hope, I think is the best word.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I'll I'll I'll tell you, uh I'm a three-time graduate of anger management. I I didn't graduate the fourth time, I smoke cigars now. Uh, and that's that's this is my piece. But back then, I was a very angry person, a very angry child, teenager, etc. Uh, I've been arrested more times than I care to admit. Uh, been in more fights, street fights, than I like to talk about. Uh, and I've been expelled from all the Chicago public schools. Yeah, and you know, uh I was very fortunate to your point, right, to uh meet uh Yael Sedon, Dr. Yael Sedon, who became my surrogate mother, and she was the first person to really kind of see past all of the proverbial walls that I was encapsulated by. You know, this guy is just another street kid, this guy is just another uh, you know, bum from the street trying to cause trouble. You know, I wasn't causing trouble, I didn't start any fights, right? I stopped him. Or if somebody fought me, I fought them. But I wasn't out there to cause problems, right? And so and so, and she recognized that. And she she was the first person that I really gave my trust to, uh, outside of the family unit, if you will. Uh, and that's where it all started, right? Was with Yael.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I uh there was there's uh a couple stories from there, um, one of which is where you you violated trust uh within an aspect of like a split second decision story just stuck with me of where, hey, I'm gonna slide this money out of this drawer while I'm closing one night. Because it was probably and I'm just because I've been there before, and it it reminded me of a story of when my grandmother refused to let me buy Mario Gall go kart. Like, I wanted this from my Nintendo 64. Be damned if she won't let me buy this thing, and I didn't have. Money. So my standpoint is like, I'm gonna go in there and I'm gonna I'm gonna take that ten dollars and I paid for it. And then afterwards, uh she comes and it's like I'm so disappointed in you, Josh. I'm not even mad, I'm disappointed that you did that. And then like the the level that it sunk me down to, that is a core memory. And when I read that your book, it it just brought me back to that time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. So she actually uh that experience, that moment in time and space was the the is the bedrock for one of the tenets of my my leadership philosophy and and which we talked about earlier, letting people fail without becoming a failure. And that's what she did, right? Because I did steal from her, and and you know, I I I I I just resorted to basic uh you know street life, like okay, well, there's a so it goes a little deeper. I think there's two kinds of thieves in this world, you know, there's yeah, meat eaters and grass eaters, you know. The meat eater intentionally breaks the lock to get into whatever it is to steal something. And the grass eater is like, oh look, there's 20 bucks sitting right there. I'm gonna just grab that. Uh, and that's what I did. And Yael, you know, to your point, wasn't angry, she was disappointed, and that broke my heart. And she she she reinforced the fact that all you had to do was say, Yeah, L, can I please have an extra 20 bucks? I I, you know, that's all that's all I had to say. And uh I didn't know that, right? I you know, that's not something that I knew. I was 13 years old, you know. And so she reinforced that in my head, and that was the trigger for you know enabling that trust, but also, right, okay, I just really, I mean, I really messed up, yeah. But but it's not over, it's not the end of the world, right? We can fix this, and and and you can fix anything if you you make that mistake, but you need people like that that are willing to see through you know, through the the the surface layer and look past and and enable you to be successful as opposed to okay, you're now a failure forever.
Mentorship And Learning From Mistakes
SPEAKER_03I'll share a vulnerable story with you because it definitely resonated. Um when I took over my platoon in Afghanistan, uh they deployed with 44 people. The time I took them over, they were down to 27. And I met my platoon sergeant and all my leadership in my platoon at um Sergeant Rodriguez's memorial, just passed away in a complex ambush. And I remember going um into that job, and I had a very I had a very selfish mentality at the time. Um, of uh like I wanted to go, uh wanted to go do you know stuff, and I wanted to go get into as many gunfights as I possibly could because I wanted to go to Ranger Regiment. Like I was thinking very selfishly um at that time. And I I remember vividly that that was a turning point for me of where I really needed to focus on the the processes and the systems, uh, but most importantly, like be selfless in a way and learning from my NCOs. Uh it was such a brutal experience of like being a platoon leader in garrison versus combat and like failing. I remember sometimes that this is a crazy story. I took a um bath in the Argonda River with my Afghan platoon counterparts probably an hour before we got into a complex ambush by like over 70 people. And I remember my platoon started telling me, he's like, You go out there, you're gonna die. It's like, but this is how we build trust. Um, and I remember just stumbling, like just continually stumbling. But my platoon sergeant that I had on this show, Derek Kearns, one of the best humans I've ever met in my life, did not give up on me. He continued to work with me. And I and I I 100% say that the reason I am today won the General Douglas MacArthur Award, all these things, just titles that I've done, is because he instilled the the core tenets of leadership, uh selfless service in who I am today.
SPEAKER_00And that's what it takes, right? But you also have to recognize when somebody's trying to be that person for you, and you have to nurture that relationship, you have to nurture that mentorship and recognize it for real, be intentional about it. Yeah, and and a lot of folks aren't because we're moving so fast, and and we don't realize when somebody is actually truly trying to be in your corner and and and help you know be that successful uh person in life, you know.
SPEAKER_03You know, that that's an interesting standpoint, is that I feel like too many nowadays we we are moving so fast that we don't slow down and actually help people uh when they need help. Because you, for example, you you were dealt a bad hand, like you know, no no qualms about it. You had a you had a shitty childhood, um, but someone gave you a second chance. Nowadays, I feel most people overlook that person, and we need to get back into that because at the end of the day, leadership's not a popularity contest, it's not about making more money, it's about taking care of people. Um, that's the core tenet of it, a hundred percent.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know what's interesting that you say that, uh, because I think I think there's some reasons for that. Uh, I look back at the Chicago police, uh, and I look, you know, in those days, and I look back at the police that we have today, uh, and I love all of my cops. I mean, my whole family is cops, man. My sister's a Chicago cop, my brother's KCPD here in Kansas City, like we love our cops. But it's not, I'm not talking about the cops themselves, I'm talking about the culture that has shifted. Uh, you know, I I I get caught stealing a loaf of bread, and the cop snatches you up and says, take your ass home. You know, put that, you know, go home. Now, you know, now the cop, you know, that officer, the body cam's rolling. They have to take that child to jail. Like you can't just say, you can't just say, you know what, young man, you know what, young lady, I'm gonna take you to your mom. Yeah, you can't say that anymore, right? So there's a whole shift, a paradigm. And I'm not and and the officers is just an example, just an example. That makes sense, Josh.
SPEAKER_03It does, and I've never told the story before, um, but I will. So I was third, I think I was 13 or 14. I was in Walmart, and this is like one of the like most traumatizing experiences of my life. And I just started growing facial hair, right? I was too prideful to ask my mom to buy me a razor. So I go in there and I steal it, and then I go to the bathroom and like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shave my face. Dude walks in, like, cuffs me, takes me into this little secret squirrel place in Walmart where all the cameras and stuff are. He's like, hey, we caught you shoplifting. Uh, cop comes in, Summersville PD, and he's like, bro, what are you doing? And he didn't use those words. He's like, you know, you could have ended your your your your your life with this, right? Like you could you could go to juvenile jail trying to like scare me and all that stuff, but at the end of the day, he handed me over to my mom. But like today, like to your point, if that were to happen today, what would happen to someone? Because, like, to you, and another point too is like emotional intelligence. When you're younger, you have a really hard time of processing self-emotions because the emotions come in, typically we respond immediately before we can actually manage them. And as a young man, my son's out there right now just being an absolutely crazy person. I can hear him yelling, and I can't I can't gauge or judge him as how I was judge you or me based on our decisions. But I mean, that's an excellent point, dude. Like the rise of body cams and stuff like that. I've never thought about it. As that's probably why we are way harder.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it prevents, it prevents the uh what's the word? Um, help me out here, Josh. Uh, you don't have the discretion.
SPEAKER_03Police discretion.
SPEAKER_00You don't have the discretion, exactly. Yeah, you don't have the discretion anymore. And that goes for everybody. That goes for school teachers, that goes for mentors, coaches. You don't have discretion anymore. It's it's it's a huge paradigm shift in our in the way our young people are existing and experience the world today. It's it's very simple. If there's a problem, you must do this. You must write it up, report, this is this. Uh or it cost that coach, that officer, that teacher their life. And so there's no discretion, you know. And that's that's I I think it's something that we need to get a hold of very soon, uh, or we're gonna see some very interesting times to
Discretion Lost And Kids Struggling
SPEAKER_00come.
SPEAKER_03And I think too, so I was a criminal justice major before. Side note, the only reason I'm a criminal justice major, full transparency, is to get a good GPA so I could be an infantry officer.
SPEAKER_04That's the only reason. I got you, man.
SPEAKER_03It's the only reason. Um, and then the army did a 180 on me be like, hey, now you're gonna go get a master's assistance engineering.
SPEAKER_04I'm like, that doesn't that doesn't uh correlate. That does not compute.
SPEAKER_03But but I remember like going through a lot of those classes and specifically, right, like incarceration. And I was listening to a Joe Rogan episode recently, and he had like a lifelong uh criminal and that just recently got out, and he made like an interesting perspective is that he was locked up in solitary confinement. So, like even when you go to prison, right? Locked up in solitary confinement for almost two years at a time for doing really small stuff. He was able at the time to use that as reflection and starting to write and do different books and different things like that, and he he he he healed himself. But nowadays, I feel like people with the insta gratification and social media and all this stuff that we have, isolation um and going to like prison is the probably the worst thing that you could do.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, no, it's the worst thing, and and it's the way uh oh gosh, what's her name? I have to remember, and I'll cite it for you and I'll give it to your read your your listeners. Uh there's a uh gosh, so basically her her philosophy is very simple. Never in the history of the world have we been this involved in our children's lives, yeah. And never in the history of the world have we had this much mental illness among our children. Yeah, so there's a correlation there, and you know the the the interesting thing that we're seeing is our children are not able to uh solve their own problems, they're not able to act on their own. And so those those children are growing up to be grown folk that are unable to do that, you know.
SPEAKER_03That's that's one of the concerns, too, that I have. Um, and that's a skill set of mine, too, is like artificial intelligence and machine learning. It is a great tool to have, but it is a tool, and if you over-leverage it, you're losing critical aspects of just being a human and the human experience of critically problem solving, sitting and reflecting and being quiet sometimes and thinking about a problem is not only therapeutic, it is a life skill that you need. And if you could just go and chat GPT or Gronk or Gemini or whatever and say, write this paper for me, or yeah, how do I solve this and just go through that? You're shutting your brain off. So it's just another aspect of like social media where we are at a youth level cutting off all those neurons that need to make those pathways to be a functioning human. So, like to your point, that's probably definitely a reason that there's a higher um cognitive decline, I guess, within like our youth of having all these behavioral issues.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, think about uh Legos. Simple, right? Back in the day, you drop a bucket of Legos, like you you did something with it. Right nowadays, it comes with a very specific set of instructions, and that's that and that's okay, you know, because that you know, we have a lot of architects and engineers, and they follow plans, they develop plans, and they're brilliant. But you end up, you know, you end up relying on this set of instructions, and then there's a select few that are developing the instructions. Because you you you can't just drop a bucket of Lagos and still build a house. Most people need the set of instructions. And and and that's that's uh I I think a pretty good example of what you're talking about, you know, from a problem-solving, uh, you know, critical thinking perspective, that uh we're gonna we're gonna reap what we sow here soon. And the paradigm will shift. The the pendulum, the pendulum hits and it'll swing all the way back. You know, just give it time. Yeah, it's uh the gentle parenting era is pretty much over. So I I don't know.
SPEAKER_03You and I had like polar polar opposite childhood, but I grew up in rural West Virginia, like rural. I don't even think there's internet still, like where I I grew up.
SPEAKER_00I spent some time in West Virginia. I lived in West Virginia, yeah.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, so you you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Uh we definitely did not have uh a gentle upbringing. I remember I had to go out and get a switch. I had to go pull my own uh stick off a tree, and I'd always get like a small one because I thought the small ones wouldn't hurt as bad. Nope. Nah, yeah. That was that was a that was an error on my part.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, we had so many kids, we had so many kids, like like they would line us up. If somebody did something, everybody got their ass whooped. You know, so they'd line us all up and and we would fight each other to really to be in the beginning or the end. Because when whoever you know, they start whooping that ass, you wanted to be in the beginning or the end, because they were either getting warmed up by the time they got to the middle, you really got your ass whooped, and by the time they got to the end, they were tired, you know. It was and we would fight each other. It's like, nah, you're on the you're on the end this time, you're in the beginning of this time. You know, I I I know exactly what you're talking about.
SPEAKER_04So kind of pivoting back because I totally derailed the conversation, going back to after your childhood,
Military Academy As A Turning Point
SPEAKER_04right?
SPEAKER_03Another critical part, I think, of your story was going to Northwestern Military Academy, like that transition uh from adolescence, getting your your shit together, lack of a better term, and then actually going out and doing something that I think through your story was where you first saw that that was a pivot point in your life, that I'm actually going to go do something that is selfless and selfish in a way. Because at the first you you were guilty of leaving your family, but it was really selfless because you changed the trajectory of your family's life. Walk me through that.
SPEAKER_00So that was the first real palpable sliding door. Okay. That I said yes to, and everybody was afraid. Like, I mean, my family thought like this woman was kidnapping me, you know. Oh wow. And and this, right? Like, who is this woman taking you where? Right? This is it was very interesting, right? This is what it is in in the in the city. It's like, who who wants to do what with you? And to me, it was like, I don't, I this is I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go. She offered this to me, and I'm gonna say yes. So it was it was a it was a very conscious decision to say yes. And that is that sliding uh door, you know, philosophy that I continue that I believe to to to this day. Uh and you know, getting, but yeah, it it was it was abandoning my sister and my brother, leaving them to to further suffer on their own. Uh, and that was very tough, man. It was it it's it was very, very, very difficult. Uh but I I I rethink, you know, I thought long and hard at that time, and like, okay, I can do something with this, and I can break free, and I can I can destroy and pommel the generational curses, and I could potentially do something to help bring us all out of this pit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and so that was that was the idea. You know, and and having that opportunity, you know, when you get those kinds of opportunities, you don't squander. Yeah, right. You don't you don't, you know, I don't know, can we cuss on here?
SPEAKER_04Like you don't fuck about yeah, you don't shit several times.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you don't fuck about, man. You you do you do the damn thing, and and that that was really important to me because you know there was a lot of folks that were there that maybe they didn't have as much on at stake, but everybody that was there was putting in the work. Yeah, and that's what it was that that's what I thrived on. And of course, you know, it was at that point that I met uh Brian Galarza. Uh big shout out to Brian, and I really hope, Josh, you get Brian on because if you get Brian on, I doubt you'll get like two words in. He's a talker.
SPEAKER_04But you're gonna love it.
SPEAKER_00This is the best episodes. You're gonna love him, man. You're gonna love him to death. He's such an amazing guy. But he's literally the greatest mentor I've ever had. Him and Yael are the shoulders that I've stood on for my entire life. Uh and there are many others, but those two shaped me, right? Yeah, Yeah, she helped me develop the moral compass that I live with today, and Brian helped me become the man, the values that I live by. Right? And and and those are those are the people that uh really really drive it. I mean, really, you gotta recognize, really drive it home for you. There's everyone has that person, you just may not have recognized them, and you really should. You really need to recognize them, you need to vocalize them, and and you need to make sure that they know that that that that they're the reason that you exist today. So, yeah, St. John's, that place, man, absolutely amazing. And to this day. So I actually I sit on their board of trustees to this day, uh, to continue to shape the outcomes of young people so that you know I can I can give back in some way. Uh, you know, and and if I could, I I would I would be there every day. But you know, it's very challenging. And right now, what's today? Today's the 31st, yeah. So tomorrow they start a really cool program that I started there called Raider School. Like, yeah, and it's meant to it's meant to mimic at a very low-level threat uh ranger school, but for youth, right? It's really launching them out of their comfort zone and and into a phase of enlightenment that that their bodies and their minds can do a whole lot more, right? You know exactly what I'm talking about. Most of you know what I'm talking about. So uh, but yeah, that place they they really did uh help shape shift and and point me in that direction that I needed to be
No Fail Mindset And Ranger School
SPEAKER_00in.
SPEAKER_03I think um one of the quotes that you had from your book is everything I did was a no-fell event. That resonated with me from the standpoint different stories, but I was the first person ever in my family to kind of break the mold of either join the military or join the coal mine. Join the military, join the coal mine. I was dead set on going to school. I wanted to go to college, so I had to figure out how to do that. Um, how do I do that? Well, I didn't take an ACT because my mom and dad got a divorce, so I didn't know you had to take a standardized test to get into college. So I figured I just stumbled my way through it. And um, I was in the community college at Marshall University for the first semester until I got good enough grades, and then I found out how expensive school was. Like, well, shit, can't afford that. My dad can't afford that. How are we gonna do this? I become a resident advisor and join the National Guard and live on a floor and be a resident advisor for like a special needs floor, which was a humbling learning experience in itself. And then I joined ROTC and then eventually first person in my family to get a college degree and then get a master's degree. But I remember going through um school, everyone was partying, they were having a good time, and my mentally I was focused, I was switched on I'm gonna get A's, I'm going to pass, I'm gonna graduate as quickly as I can because my dad's helping me pay for this. Um, and I can't fail him. Like every day was a no-fell event, and honestly, that that's one of the core tenets of like who I am today. When I was going to ranger school, no-fell event. I gotta pass this patrol. Why? Because I can't be a successful, in my eyes at the time, platoon leader, unless I have this. I need to show up with my tab. Yeah, or I'm not, I'm not, I'm nothing.
SPEAKER_00That's the mindset. Same mindset I had. Uh I was class five twelve, I'm sure, when you went through, Josh. Uh, but same same mindset. Like I didn't want to get to I I didn't feel like I could stand in front of my soldiers, you know, if I if I uh if I didn't if I didn't achieve that, you know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's like no. I'm trying to look on the wall and see what my class was. I'm God, what you don't know your class, Jazz?
SPEAKER_00I've got to call you out, bro. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03October 2011 is when I graduated. So it's you and I. Okay, let's let's jump to that one and I'll come back to your school. You and I share the scene.
SPEAKER_00You gotta be like you gotta be 10-11 or something, then something like that.
SPEAKER_03But I was a summer ranger. I didn't I I enjoyed my winner ranger.
SPEAKER_00We were still in green, so we could sew it on with white stitching, you know? Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um so you and I share a very similar story through Ranger School. Go through um the first phase at Derby, uh, knock that out, go through mountains, knock that out, uh, doing really well. Get to Florida, and it just kicks me in the butt, and then I end up recycling. And I remember, and you you painted this really well in your book. For no one who's gone to Ranger School, it's it's not a school like selection for tier one level organizations or long walk. It is a grueling 60, most likely 90 days, um, school that will test you to your physical limits of not only you, but how to lead other people in that. Nothing that you do is overly hard or complicated. What makes it hard and complicated is that you are on a caloric intake deficit and you're getting zero sleep, and you may be able to do that functionally for a week or two. Well, now do it for 60 days straight. Um, that is a challenge, uh, 100%. But I got the Florida recycled. I was like, well crap, I am a failure again at life, and there was a tropical storm coming through. So you remember um in those bays where they had those stairs going up, everyone's care packages were on those stairs, like literally all the way to the third floor. Dude, I gained like 20 pounds over a course of 20 days before the next glass came in because of this class.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, yeah. Man, I you know, I actually I think probably recycling Florida was the most beneficial thing that could have happened to me for probably two or three reasons. The first is that my my Ranger buddy Todd Patterson, if you're out there, brother, that's another guy. Todd Patterson, you gotta get this guy on, man.
SPEAKER_02He's okay.
SPEAKER_00This guy broke his Achilles. Oh wow, and I remember him suffering through the Derby phase to literally not get booted out, you know? And he couldn't walk, but he could run. Interesting. So he couldn't run, like he couldn't run fast, you know, but he can move like an airborne shuffle, and that's all he did the whole time. And it was so yes, I swear to God, I was like, bro, I need you to slow down, I'm tired, you know. But he he was moving anyways. Todd Patterson, the reason I say that that's important is because he recycled, so I moved past mountain phase, he recycled mountains, so I left him behind in mountains, and then he caught up with me in Florida phase. We were together again, so that made me exceptionally like happy, like I was a happy person. Like, man, I just I got to see one of my guys and we were together again, so that was really important. But uh you know, the the other reason that recycling was so first you you just you just learn a whole lot more, yeah. And I mean you just you just absolutely learn a whole lot more, uh, and and it's definitely a humbling experience. Uh but at the end of the day, recycling is crushing.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00And you know, I don't know if anybody out there is a back to the future fan, or if you're a Michael J. Fox fan, but if you recognize this quote, Michael J. Fox said this, and this is this is what I uh continue to think in my head, it's about being grateful, right? Because he says with gratitude, with gratitude, optimism is sustainable. All right, how do you stay optimistic? And it's because I was grateful in general just to be there and have that opportunity, and that allowed me, that enabled me to continue to move forward. And then when I got then when I saw Todd uh and Bryant, like my guy Bryant, he and I were we're we're right next to each other in our graduation folder or picture. Uh when I saw those two, like I was beyond invincible, you know. Yeah, like that's what it is. And this just goes all the way back to shared suffering, and and it's so important. So I I you know though recycling Florida, hands down, one of the best experiences of my life.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it it was um the same, uh, good and bad. Bad because I made a horrible decision, not horrible decision from the standpoint that I married the love of my life, horrible decision that I went to eyebolic and I had two days in between before Ranger School, went back home to West Virginia, got married, and then went to Ranger School, and then my wife was working in Huntsville or uh Huntington, um, West Virginia at the time as a nurse, and she was tracking when I was going to graduate. She's gonna come move out to with me in Phoenix City, and I call her, like standing there in the line. It's like and she's all excited. She's like, Hey, when are you coming home? It's like uh did you quit your job already? Could to come? Yes, it's like okay. Well, good and bad news. Good news is I love you, you're married to me, so that's good. Bad, I failed. I want to be here for another 30 days.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, it sucks, man. Yeah, that sucks. It definitely sucks. Yeah, yeah, that that's it's it's crushing, man. Like that's the I from a man, a manly experience, memory experience, like crying. Yeah, that was that was a moment in time and space when I sat there on that wet, sopping ass log bench. You know, we're just and I'm sitting there thinking, they called me from my patrol, and I'm like, fuck, I gotta get this right, you know. I gotta get this right.
SPEAKER_03You also had actions on, right? Uh Santa Rosa Island. Oh, yeah, yeah, man.
SPEAKER_00We had a good time, bro.
SPEAKER_03That's the hardest one to have, and you gotta get a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00So congratulations. We had a good time. Well, you know, it wasn't me that got to go, right? It was the collective, and that's what was good about it, man. Uh, I remember the moon. I remember it was such perfect, such perfect lighting. Uh, it was just beautiful, man. Like it was such an epic experience. Absolutely. So, and I wouldn't have had that I had I not recycled.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I went to uh when I was stationed at Fort Polk, Louisiana, I went to Destin, Florida with my family uh for a vacation. Dude, I was so lost mentally of where I was in Florida when I was going through Ranger School, I had no idea that Eglin Air Force Base was right there, and Santa Rosa Island is right there. We're driving in, and I'm like, this looks very familiar. And I start getting like flashbacks, it's like, and I look it up, it's like that's ranger school. I don't want to go here on vacation anymore. Let's find another location. Yeah. Oh man. Um, all right. So back to your story,
Accountability And Enforcing Standards
SPEAKER_03right? Like uh going through the academy, you raise you rise to the uh core of cadets, which is like no small feat in itself, but there was a specific story in the book that I think there's a valuable lesson in. Um, of where you caught someone, I think it was selling tobacco on your four. Walk me through that story and walk me through the lesson that you learned.
SPEAKER_00So it's interesting because as I smoke a cigar right now, right? Uh you know, the so I was a junior and I was not so I was Foxtrot Company, which is you know, culturally in that space, that was like the cat's meow.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And Brian Galarza was our tack, it was amazing. We had such a great year, great experience. And my entire intention uh uh was okay, I'm gonna just I'm gonna hopefully I'll become the commander of this foxtruck company. That's my goal. Well, uh this what's his name? His name was like Levian or something, I believe. This is right in the book. I'm pretty sure. I'm sorry, Levian, if you're out there, bro, and you're listening, man. I hope you're okay. But uh he was he was he was the probably one of the most arrogant SOBs I ever met. And you know, back then, this is another paradigm shift, and I won't go off topic too much, but um we had you know 11 and 12-year-olds, up to 18-year-olds all in the same group.
SPEAKER_03Okay, oh wow.
SPEAKER_00So nowadays everybody's separated. Nowadays you got seventh graders are all in the same company, eighth graders are all in the same company, right? But back then everybody was together, and so uh and it helped it helped those young people, in my opinion. It helped those, it helped the youngins grow up faster, right? Now everybody's just afraid that they're gonna get hurt, so they separate them. Well, back then it was my responsibility to protect these youngins, and this guy continued to uh you know bring uh chewing tobacco. And look, I smoke cigars, I've never had a cigarette a day in my life, I've never popped a chew, I've never smoked a joint, but I'll smoke a good cigar. And you know, but this guy he kept uh selling these kids this tobacco on my floor, and and I and I had to remind him repeatedly, get the fuck off my floor. You know, this is not your space. These are he's eight, he's about to graduate, you know, he's 18 years old. These kids are 11 and 12, like they don't need to be doing that. Okay, you're gonna sell it to another senior, cool, do what you do. But these other kids, they're not your business, they're my business. And uh and he spit he spit in my face. So, you know, I ended up smashing his face in. I threw him against the wall really bad, and by that I mean I smashed his face into the wall. And we got into it, you know, and we got into it really bad. And at the time, uh Rear Admiral Ronald J. Kurth was the uh president of the academy. Uh, he actually was the Russian attaché to the Pentagon during the Cold War. Look him up, Ronald J. Kurth. He recently passed, really great individual. Uh, but uh, you know, he pulls me into his office and he says, uh, you know, I just I just hospital hospitalized this kid, you know. And I'm thinking, shit, I'm about to be expelled. I'm back to my Chicago days, you know, because I lost my shit, man. I lost my shit. And he looks at me and he says, Well, what happened? I said, Well, he's he spit on me. And he the admiral says, So he deserved it. I said, Yes, sir. He goes, All right, carry on. That was it. And I was like, that's it. So then a week later, that's when I got like they selected me to be the first captain of the corps, which was a really amazing opportunity and experience for where I was, right? Four years ago, I didn't have a bed to sleep in. You know, and now and now, you know, I'm I just you know, I kind of relapsed uh and I went to Chicago on this kid, but they still saw past all of that, and they they you know they saw that that I wasn't doing anything wrong, but rather protecting and they promoted me. Yeah, and that's so different now, you know.
SPEAKER_03You you saying that, and me remembering, I think, return to the standard, return to the standard. That's the motto for the core. He saw something in you is that hey, there's a standard in this organization, and if you cross it, there's consequences. Um, and I really think nowadays leaders are afraid to hold people accountable, and and that's the unpopular part of being a leader. Like sometimes you have to hold people accountable. And to your point, um maybe that accountability is wall-to-wall counseling. I don't know. I'm not saying that that that is the answer, but it's definitely something that is a valuable teaching point that I got from your book is that leadership's not a popularity contest, you're never gonna make everyone happy. And if you see something, you have to correct it. That that's your job. Um, you need to do that because if you walk by it and you don't correct it, it's only going to get worse. And now you set a new standard in the organization, you're gonna have 11 and 12-year-old kids walking around with dips in. That's that that's not good for anyone.
SPEAKER_00Same thing for our young soldiers today. These kids are are 17, 18, 19, 20 years old. Yep, and they don't know what right looks like unless you show them.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_00And and if you have the if you have the courage to do what you're supposed to do, and and to your point, make that correction, that is the standard. And it's really hard. And our and and yeah, most many leaders uh struggle with that. Yeah, absolutely struggle with that. And I wish they wouldn't. I wish they would feel more confident in the support that they're gonna get. Right? You're a junior leader, you're gonna get the support if you're making the right call. I'm not telling you, you know, don't punch the guy in the face, okay? Don't choke him out. Don't no. Make the correction. Yeah, make the correction and stand your ground and state your standard. Make the correction.
Sponsor Break And Back To Leadership
SPEAKER_03Today's show sponsor comes from 10th Mountain Whiskey and Spirit Company. They are a philanthropic award-winning craft distillery located in the heart of the Rocky Mountains in Colorado. And for being a listener of Tales of Leadership, you get 10% off on any order using the promo code Pando Commando when you place an order at 10th Whiskey.com. Both of those are in the show notes, so you'll be able to find them. 10th Mountain Whiskey's and Spirit Company, honors heroes, and they craft a legacy. I've commanded two organizations in the 10th Mountain, and both of which are very deeply impactful to me. This is a company that I stand behind. And if you're looking for a great bottle of bourbon, look no further at 10th Mountain Whiskey and Spirit Company. Back to the show. I'll never forget Colonel Ziesman. He was our brigade commander um for 2-2 infantry out of Fort Lewis. We just got back from a pretty hard deployment, and everyone's all ramped up, right? Like all ramped up from this deployment that we just got back from. So they're going into town, Seattle, and like all these areas, and they're they're getting a little too antsy in their pantsy, and they're getting in all these fights. And I remember he pulls out the brigade on this uh parade field, and this was the whole message. By the way, W Day WWE at the time was coming to wrestle. So there's John Cena in the background, and like all these people. He was doing this, so I can't confirm or deny that I actually saw him or not. Uh but uh he stands up there, he's like, guys, you guys just went to war and just crushed the enemy, and you're going into Seattle and you're getting beat up by a bunch of hippies with man buns. If you're getting a fight, you win that fight. Now, I'm not saying you need to go to Seattle and just fight everywhere, but if you're going to get into that fight, you will win. And I promise you, uh your consequences will not be as severe.
SPEAKER_01It's like that's great.
SPEAKER_00That's okay, great.
SPEAKER_01No, that's great. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, I you know, I I I mostly kind of agree with that. That's great. Uh you know, that's exactly right.
SPEAKER_03So before we transition from this part of your time, I gotta ask you, tell me, uh, do you got any uh good stories on Chris Wheatley since he's a mutual connection that we both have?
SPEAKER_00Chris Wheatley, that son of a gun, man. This he's the most hard charger I ever met. The thing about Chris is uh, you know, so we spent a lot of years together.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I if you if I if you could if you could look up, if there was a picture and a definition in the in in uh you know the dictionary for immovable force, it'd be Chris Wheelie. He will not shake, he's got the best poker face in the fucking world, man. That guy. I mean, I swear, you never know what he's thinking. I don't know if if if you've ever been led by Chris Wheelie, I guarantee you know what I'm talking about because you never know what he's thinking, and he is literally that guy. And and that was always interesting to me because he was my commander, and he well, you know, back then, right, like as as a uh as students, uh and he he just never knew what he was thinking, and so I was always trying to figure out, you know, what am I supposed to do? Uh but you know, Chris, uh Chris and I we he I think he gave the nickname he gave me, well, I had a couple of nicknames, but uh he called me the enforcer because all he all he had to do was kind of look and then I would go enforce. Um but he you know he was that guy. He was a solid so from the moment I met him, the most stand-up, you know, solid individual that you just wanted to follow and respect. Yeah, and and again, that poker face. So I don't know, he ever tell you about his uh you know some of the the fights we had back then and his jaw getting broken.
SPEAKER_04No, he didn't tell me about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, man. We uh we got into some riffrafs, and uh, you know, yay, uh I'm not calling you out, Chris, man. Uh but I I had your back, bro. I had your back. And unfortunately, you know, he had his jaw wired shut, and I ended up locking myself in, and you know, we me, G, and everybody like handling the business, if you will. But you know, Chris stood his ground. Didn't matter, didn't matter what was going on, what was at stake, he always stood his ground. Yeah, and that's that's what uh that's what made me really you know really enjoy being around Chris.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah, I I um I served with him uh when I was in task force too at Fort Polk under um JRTC. And I I at the time I went to go be a company walker, which essentially means I was shadowing company commanders through these rotational exercises, but I never had company command. So I had like an imposter syndrome almost away, hey, I'm a captain, but I never been a company commander, and I would never tell them that until after the rotation, be like, oh surprise. I've never been a commander. Uh but I want to tell you how you could improve.
SPEAKER_04If you told me that shit, I'd be like, Yeah, yeah, exactly. You wouldn't listen.
SPEAKER_03So at the end, after I did the AR, I shook their hand by, hey, by the way, I've never been a commander yet, but thank you for all the lessons because I'm gonna implement them. Yeah, but he was so calm, cool, and collected, um, and was instrumental in kind of helping me push through that um imposter syndrome that I that I was feeling at the time. So if you're listening, Chris, you're you're awesome. Now go do push-ups.
SPEAKER_00Uh yeah, go do push-ups, man. Or jump out of something, that's what you do, man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Kind of just out of respect to your time, because I feel like we can go all day.
Cancer Forces Help And Humility
SPEAKER_03I kind of want to jump to when you're in flight school. Um, because this is where I think uh before right before that, you got diagnosed with with cancer. Um, and walk me through the mindset shift of where you realize that you couldn't go in it alone.
SPEAKER_00I struggled for a long time personally. So, first of all, surviving out of Chicago, even coming through Yale and Brian and St. John's and the crew, I still felt like it was still on me and me alone. Yeah, and so that was a mindset that I kept for a long time. And you know, when I got accepted to flight school, I said, I said, I said, fuck it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it, despite what's going on. And you know, it it it wasn't the best decision I ever made, you know. But to me, it was no one can defeat me. I had you know, and and and it was only me. But what I realized as this illness continued to destroy my body, yeah, I I needed to rely and lean on more and more people. Uh and it's it's kind of choking me up, man, because you know, that wasn't who I was at that time. Yeah. And it was a it was a huge shift in my mindset. Because I just I never I didn't grow up relying on anybody.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I may have trusted people, but I still did the work myself. I didn't ask people for help. You know, I never actually said the the words never came out of my mouth ever. Will you help me? Yeah. Right? I never those words from from coming out of Chicago to you know, meeting your L to Nothing. I never said, will you help me? Uh and and so that experience it forced me to recognize that there are people that exist that want to help you. And I could, you know, I I could either I could either be defeated by this or I could say, okay, you know, it's time. This is this is not working anymore. Like you certainly cannot do this shit on your own. Yeah. And and it happened, man, and it did. And it and it wasn't a thing that just uh it wasn't like a um a gradual, it was like a flip of a switch, you know, and it just hit me. And it was at that point that I let everybody in on the news, and I told everybody, and I hadn't even I hadn't even told you L that I was sick, you know. I didn't want anybody to think anything. I was so secretive about my illness. Ultra, ultra secretive. It was it was like the most best kept top secret Q clearance fucking Sigma 15 shit you ever, you know, like ever. And I I don't know why, you know, I I don't know why I did that. I I I I look back now and I'm like, I don't know why I kept it a secret. I just felt that it was mine, it was mine alone, and no one else's, and I didn't want to ask anyone for help.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, you know, once I uh crashed my car, yeah, trying to drive home from chemotherapy by myself.
SPEAKER_03Which is blows my mind, man. And and it also blows my mind that you were going through chemotherapy and flight school. So so that was a whole game.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so yeah, we were talking about flight school, yeah. So I so I I didn't so I thought so I was I was done. So I was when I went to flight school, I had my I had finished my first set of treatments for chemo. I was supposed to be in remission. And and it turns out that I wasn't. And it turns out that I had uh the the tumor was still there and it was still crushing my lung, and I was still operating at like 40%, but I was still I was still kicking those aviators' asses, man. I was smoking them. But I was in much better shape, you know. Uh and and I'll tell you what I did struggle. I struggled, I struggled like a motherfucker through Dunker. Like I could not swim. And I I was like drowning.
SPEAKER_04I don't know if you've ever been through Dunker, you know, where they you're in the hall, then uh you have to get out of the sea belts and stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then you you know, and you gotta pass the big swim test and all that shit, you know. But man, I was not a good, you know, my lungs were not there for that, you know. So, but you know, like that was a struggle, man. It was a huge struggle. And and that that taught me the the the many lessons, but most of which was you know, people are there for you, and and again, they they're they're offering uh they're offering their support, and we're we are the ones saying no. So I learned yeah, I learned don't say no to myself, rather let other people say no to me, you know. Um, and and that was a big big shift, big mindset shift, big lifestyle shift for me, because I was not that guy, man. I did not ask anyone for help. I was not that person, uh, but I had to.
Ice Age Trail Reflection And Healing
SPEAKER_03I think that's like the the powerful wisdom in this is as crazy as it is, um, and literally you almost dying um and going through flight school and crashing your car and having to go through uh the therapy again uh and having an exercise bike in your room.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I knew that was my therapy, man. That was my therapy. That's the only thing that kept me from wanting to hurt people, you know.
SPEAKER_03It blows my mind. Like, because I put myself in that position, I would um and and like you too. I grew up not relying on other people. Um, like, hey, if I'm gonna go to college, I'm gonna figure this out. If I'm gonna go do this thing, I gotta figure this out. Um, and it slowly over time, and being married and having kids has helped me gravitate and ask for help. And I think that's one of the key lessons that I learned in leadership is that it's you're not expected to know all the right answers. Um, and the only way that you're gonna close the distance, especially with your team and relationship building, is to ask questions and be humble enough to open up to other people. Um, yours was a very extreme example, and I think your childhood that you had like just raised in like you were the person, um, you were taking care of your family, like you can't be weak. Um, you can't show weakness, and like I I felt the same way. Like, um, I can't get sick. I uh like I'm the breadwinner for my family. I definitely think that there's some correlations there, but dude, that's um that was such an intense story, and coming out of that on the back end, uh I think going through you know, going back to the the core for a portion of that, but starting your walk, what and I could I really think this is where the reflection in your book started to dig into. Walk me going through the I I can't remember, was it called the Ice Path or uh Yeah, the Ice Age, the Ice Age Trail. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I so the thing about the Ice Age Trail is it wasn't really a thing for me until I realized how lost I was.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I was really lost. I was lost up here. Um, once I had went to the academy and I went to OCS and I went to ranger school and I had this epic plan for my life, and everything was you know going so well. And all of a sudden everything's ripped from you. And and it's they literally just pulled the rug right out, just pull the rug, and you have no choice, right? You don't get to say, wait, wait, wait, hold on, don't pull the rug quite yet. No, they just fucking ripped the rug, you know. And I was lost, I was really lost, like unbelievably profoundly gone in terms of uh uh connecting with anyone, yeah, uh uh being motivated about doing anything, about uh you know, I I had I had I I was destroying any meaningful and purposeful relationships that I might have had, right? Because I was so upset. And so, you know, I I I I had thought to myself, I I need to, I was reading a book by Brace Barber. Um, it's called No Excuse Leadership. You ever read that book? No, I haven't great book, Josh. You should read that like tomorrow, man, or on your flight. It's a quick read. Quick read. And Brace Barber, No Excuse Leadership, shout out to him because fabulous book. But I was reading that book and it just and it just reinforced in my head like you need to. This is where I my I've developed my philosophy, like do something different. So I but I needed to, I needed to leave everybody and everything. I didn't want to be around anybody, I didn't want to be around nobody, I wanted nothing. So I thought, well, what what what made me feel good? And it kind of brought me back to my ranger school days. I was like, fuck, you know what? I I really enjoyed the mountains. I really enjoyed yeah, you know, it sucked, but I enjoyed that rucksack. Like I enjoyed being out there, you know, just putting the work in. Yeah, and I remember I remember, you know, any anybody that's gone through any sort of you know training, air, whatever, you get in your head, you know, whether it's rain school, whether it's airborne, whether it's aerosol, whether it's uh selection, you get in your head and and you get you get you get a lot of time to think. And I felt like I needed that, and so I developed this plan to leave. Uh, and I'm I I did that, right? So I I started this plan and I I said, okay, well, I'm gonna, you know, and I and I made it the way I made the way I uh rationalized it was the I spent a year prior to the the walk, I had spent six weeks inside in my stem cell transplant and all my operations and all that crap. So I said, you know, I'm a year away from that, I'm gonna spend six weeks outside, right? And uh, you know, I needed to put the past behind me, both figuratively and literally. Yeah, so I did that, and I planned this uh it's a thousand-mile uh hike across the state of Wisconsin, and I I was very meticulous, you know, in my planning, and I called all kinds of places all throughout Wisconsin and I said, hey, can I you know because I calculated my calories, how much intake would I need, and how much could I carry, you know, weight to calorie ratio became very important.
SPEAKER_03It's it's macadamia nuts and peanut butter.
SPEAKER_00Man, man, bro, uh a single macadamia nut is like 250 calories. It's wild. Like if you get a legit macadamia nut from Hawaii, legit 250 calories, man. It's beautiful. That's crazy. So, you know, yeah, exactly, right? And so I did all that, man, and and I and I and I venture out uh and I I needed space. I I probably spent a total of 200, 300 miles, like not seeing a single person. It's therapeutic, just me. And that got that helped me get in my head. Like, I don't have my phone on me. I'm not scrolling stories and yeah, you know, shorts and all that shit, you know. None of that was happening, man. I was reading books, I was writing, that's when I first started writing my book. I was you know, just all of that, and and that's really when I figured out that I needed to leave and I needed to do something dramatic and different. And that's when I decided to put my name. So going back to the book, No Excuse Leadership, by Brace Barber, he founded a company called Orion Talent. Seriously, it's in the back of the if you find the original book in the back of that book, it says Orion Talent taking Rangers from the battlefield to the boardroom. That was swear to God. So I said, I said, fuck it. I'm gonna I'm gonna drop my resume and I'm gonna put my resume on Orion Town, and they fucking called me.
SPEAKER_04That's crazy.
SPEAKER_00They called me, man, and they brought me to Kansas City, and I interviewed, and and I got selected at the Kansas City National Security Campus, and and that's literally what sparked like kind of threw everything in motion, uh, because I listened to my soul, right? I I enabled myself to escape and do something different, uh, and that's what I needed to do personally. Maybe that's not for everybody, but that's what I had to do. And that experience man taught me a lot of lessons, but the the groundwork is really doing different, find grounding yourself, listening to your soul, and and and executing, right? You gotta go and and have a high-risk posture and go and do it.
SPEAKER_03You know, I you and I share that too. Um, I hike the Appalachian Trail, and that's why I gotta ask you why you chose not to do that because you're so close during Ranger School. There's just a level of like detailed, meticulous planning that goes into that, like having these stops every 60 miles, calculating what you need, what gear do you need during the times and seasons? Um, how are you gonna sleep? Maybe in the summer you want to do a hammock, and then when when it gets colder, you want to go into a tent and like all these things. But there was just a beauty about it. Like every spring break, and that's how I did it through college, I go hike the Appalachian Trail. But I didn't really understand the power of reflection uh until after I got my master's degree. I was I was still mentally um still mentally um burdened by a couple soldiers that I lost during my company command. It was just eating at me because you lose soldiers in combat, you can justify that to yourself. But when you lose soldiers in garrison to completely uh tragic accidents, you know, you eat at yourself like maybe I wasn't the leader that they needed. Uh and I I had a job and a blessing at the time, and that's why I think COVID for me was a blessing of where I teleworked, and I really started reading books on how to journal. Um, because I first started this, I was like, dude, this is like foo foo crap, it's not gonna help me. I started journaling, started asking the right questions, uh, and dude, it just started pouring out of me, like pouring out of me. And I remember sitting there crying like a little baby uh when when because I was going through all these things, and and it's a healing that a lot of people nowadays just don't fully understand. And to you to your point, um, you had a way more impactful story than I did. Uh, and being able to pull that out, finding that little cabin with the two rooms, starting to journal and your your ice bag again.
SPEAKER_00That was my space, man. That was my space.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that's amazing, dude.
SPEAKER_00Um and that's that's but that's to your point, like that's what happens, right? You you have to allow it to happen, and you have to look for it, and and you have to let it happen. You know, uh, but you know, it's not going to realize unless you actually go out and do something dramatic. And I don't mean, you know, I don't mean take your life or or or or go shoot up a store. I mean, I mean go do something truly inspirational for yourself, find your soul. All right, like really, really get out there and have a talk with your soul.
SPEAKER_03I always line it like this because I'm I'm a visual guy and I'm an infantry officer. Um, so I like to keep it simple, stupid. I always uh joke that I'm one degree away from being a Marine. Um I I think I think of it as head, heart, hand alignment. Head. Can I see it? Do I understand it? Heart, is there emotional or intrinsic motivation that is is actually making me do this thing? Or am I just doing it because I have to? Because if I can align it and I can see it and I can feel it, then I'm just gonna naturally do the work. Um, and too too often nowadays, people are just going through the motions and they don't have that alignment. You have to create alignment in life. If you have purpose, uh passion plus purpose plus perspective, then you have precision. That's when you actually can go make a difference. Uh, and it really all the genesis of that journaling that I had was starting this podcast, sharing my story, so hopefully, people would not go down the same rabbit holes and mistakes that I had, and bringing people like you on that I call purposeful accountable leaders, people who have shared suffering, but they turned it for good, and they're making an impact in this world. That's exactly what you're doing, dude.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate that. And I completely agree with you, and that's what I so what you call head heart handle and I I to me I say does it make your make your heart sing? Yeah, right, because if if it if it makes your heart sing, then you you're there. You just have to listen. You have to listen. And we're not doing that. Uh, and everybody needs to. Doesn't matter what's going on in your life, take a moment, have an executive session with your soul, right, and and figure out what makes your heart sing. Because it's very different from the things that you might be passionate about. It's very different. And if you're not listening, it's gonna be a it's gonna be a tough fucking life, man. It's gonna be real tough. And especially if you have you know a family and and you got you got you know children, a partner, yeah. You have you doesn't you have you are the bedrock, both sides. It's your responsibility to figure out what makes your heart sing so you can make everyone else's heart sing. Yeah, that's your responsibility.
How To Connect And Get The Book
SPEAKER_00That's my responsibility, Jason.
SPEAKER_03This is I bittersweet. Bittersweet is that this may be one of the last podcasts I get to record in like the next four months because Uncle Sam calls. Uh as he does. Yeah, I think this has been a phenomenal episode. So last question for you, brother, is how can our listeners connect with you and how can they contribute to your mission? Find your book, best way to connect with you.
SPEAKER_00Uh well, if you're in the Kansas City area, certainly just come out and see me. You can look me up online, any of my websites. I've got uh sharpleader.com, that's where my book is. Uh, we have learntosuffer.com, and then we also have our cigar lounge because we have a cigar lounge out here. Uh, and then you know, so if you're in the Kansas City area, I'm very reachable. Very reachable. Uh, my book is available on Amazon, it's also on Audible. It's called Eyes Wide Open, Learning to Suffer. So check it out. Uh, if you reach out to me first, I can get you a free copy. I'll ship every any of your listeners, I'll ship you a free copy. My team will handle it. Just let them let us know. Don't don't buy it on Amazon, don't don't buy it to the website. Just message us and we'll get you a copy, okay? Uh, because it's it's you know, especially if you're listening and you you really want to enjoy the book, we'll get you a copy. Um, but uh other than that, reach out anytime. Uh my all of my info is online. You can't miss me, and I would love to share a cigar with you uh at any point in time, especially if you're in the Kansas City area, please come out and play. I travel a lot to Chicago, Milwaukee area, and some other areas for some the other work that I do. Uh, so don't hesitate to reach out. Um I'd I'd certainly love to hear from any any of you that are listening.
SPEAKER_03Jason, it it's been a distinct pleasure, and I really mean that, man. Like uh going through um and I and I've definitely slowed down with podcasts of where I want to be way more intentional and actually read the book and get to know the people that I'm bringing on. Um and just hearing your story over the last week and getting connect with you. I feel that I am definitely going to be a better leader moving forward and some of the lessons that you've taught me. Thank you for everything you've done, continue to do, and just keep going, crushing life, man.
SPEAKER_00I appreciate you, Josh. I think this has been an equal exchange. I've learned a lot from you and I appreciate your uh your insights. I think you got a great thing going here. Really excited to uh continue to watch your other episodes. Um I've I've been I've been watching them and I've been sharing them with everybody. So fully uh fully grateful for what you're doing. Thank you for helping her, especially our upcoming leaders, you know, really get a good grasp on what right looks like.
SPEAKER_03I appreciate it, brother. Well, have a great night, and then if you're ever in DC, come hit me up.
SPEAKER_00I am in DC, so I'll definitely hit you up. All right, brother. All right, man. Take care. We'll see you.
Top Takeaways And Final Call To Action
SPEAKER_03All right, team. Time for our after action review. Phenomenal episode, and I'm I'm fully transparent. I could have probably continued to ask him questions and just had a conversation with Jason for the next probably two hours. Um, but I work at the Pentagon now, it takes me about an hour to commute back and forth, and I'm tired. So I try to cut it off in about uh an hour. So, what are the top three takeaways that I pulled from this episode? The first one is focus on the effort and not the outcome. This has been a repetitive theme that I've noticed. As a leader, you need to focus on the effort. And what does that mean? I think it means focusing on the processes and the systems and the people. Because the processes, the systems, and the people are the ones that drive the outcomes, the results that'll just naturally happen. And when you focus on the results or the end state, you are focused in the wrong area. If you really care about outcomes, you should be focused on processes and systems and people. The second key takeaway is leave your comfort zone. And Jason is a case study in this continuously pushing outside of his comfort zone. And what does that mean? We always say pushing outside of our comfort zone. Here's what it means to me. Every time we are given the opportunity to do something hard and push ourselves outside of the comfort zone, we are given a cognitive choice. Do we choose to stay in this complacent state because we're happy and we're content? Or do we choose to grow? Uh and as Jason talks about this, there's sliding doors or opportunities that are open to you in life. Leaving and embracing discomfort is the fastest way to grow rapidly. Think of this as an S curve. I've mentioned this several times. But when we first start something, we immediately encounter resistance. That's an exponential climb. But once we start doing something, the discomfort that we had gains momentum and we begin to grow. And then eventually we'll plateau again. And we have to make that cognitive choice. Do we continue to push ourselves outside of our comfort zone? And I'm going to just tell you a cold truth. Life is full of discomfort. It doesn't matter how much you try to avoid it by being complacent, uh, it will find you. So figure out a way to embrace it and learn to take those opportunities because that is how we grow. And then the last one that I had was find gratitude and suffering. So Jason and I share this. There's a lot of uh stories that I've reflected on in my life that are pain points for me. Why are they pain points? Because I lost loved ones, I've lost soldiers, um, I've just had horrible experiences. Uh, I've lost unequivocally those things that just happen, um, tragic life events, right? But then I began to change how I think about those events, and how I did that was through quiet reflection. And when I began to reflect on those experiences, I started asking the question is what am I grateful for in this moment? And it's a crazy thing to think of if it's a foreign concept to you. Like if you lose a loved one, what are you grateful for? I don't know. Maybe all the memories that you had with that person, or maybe you were the right person at the right time within an organization to get people through those tragic events. There's always something, but if you always hunt the bad stuff, you're never going to be grateful. And in order to be a pal, right, a purposeful, accountable leader, you have to find gratitude. That's just something you need to do. And you do that through quiet reflection. All right, team, do me a favor. As always, I sincerely, sincerely mean this. If you find value in this episode and other episodes, help me share and spread the word. Make sure you like, share, and subscribe this podcast wherever you listen. Leave a review, send me feedback. I absolutely love to hear that. The fastest way to do that is go to Buzz Sprout or go to McMillian Leadership Coaching, which is my current website. And I caveat by uh I am currently under the process of revamping my website to make it way more streamlined to where you can actually interact with me uh much easier. Follow me on social media, it's at uh Tells of Leadership. You can find me everywhere. And if you want to support the show, you can become a show sponsor. Reach out uh if it's something that I would value in terms of a product that I would genuinely use. Uh always reach out. I'm always open to those. And you can also visit tells of leadership.buzzsprout.com and just support or donate the show. And I promise you, everything that I make, I am putting it back into this podcast 100% uh to continue to grow. Because trust me, running a podcast and being an active duty army officer is a challenge uh in mindset. But as always, team, uh, I am your host, Josh McMillian, reminding you every day is a gift. Don't waste yours. I'll see you next time.
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